Need expert opinion on VIN Knucklehead FL 1946

[T. Cotten]

It was my assumption that the AMCA has allowed the best available reproduction in judging, and that should include engine cases as well. The main reason people are reproducing engine cases is because there is a demand to replace hopelessly damaged, and worn out motor cases. Not only is the AMCA not the police, the AMCA is not in charge of the marketplace.

Our AMCA judges are smart, and can recognize reproduction. If they spot a reproduction case, there should be a notation, and deduction on the judging sheet. . . . And that's it. . . . An AMCA member has the right to have their motorcycle judged.

Gosh Eric!

The AMCA may not be "in charge" of the marketplace, but for other than an authoritative critique to help ascertain the inherent value of their machine... Why else have it judged?

And face it, if you have to jump around the continent to get your 'awards', getting judged ain't cheap.

....Cotten

[exeric]

It was my assumption that the AMCA has allowed the best available reproduction in judging, and that should include engine cases as well. The main reason people are reproducing engine cases is because there is a demand to replace hopelessly damaged, and worn out motor cases. Not only is the AMCA not the police, the AMCA is not in charge of the marketplace.

Our AMCA judges are smart, and can recognize reproduction. If they spot a reproduction case, there should be a notation, and deduction on the judging sheet. . . . And that's it. . . . An AMCA member has the right to have their motorcycle judged.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Eric, you'll need to speak to the Chief Judge, but altered engine numbers are an automatic disqualification with AMCA judging. There is an arms race going on between the recasters of crankcases , the suppliers of number stamps, and the AMCA judges and I like to think the AMCA is still just ahead. The money is in the knuckleheads, so this is where we are seeing replica cases and carefully faked numbers. The clue is in the name, we are the Antique Motorcycle Club and not the carefully-fabricated-for-money Club. Reproduction frames for both the 1936 and up Big Twins and the military 45s means, given the identity of the bike goes with the frame number in Europe, that bikes of modern manufacture are trying to be passed off as historic.

[T. Cotten]

What I can't figure out, Folks,..

...Is why anyone even wants to play the AMCA judging game?
Obviously, we can toss out authenticating or documenting a VIN!

....Cotten

[exeric]

And any bike that has been repainted, replated, seat recovered, new tires, new battery, etc. etc. etc. could also be disqualified. Again, the AMCA has no business judging the authenticity of a serial number, except as it applies to the year of the motorcycle. I would be curious what our chief judge has to say about that. If it was a case by case judgment, I can understand that because there are so many variables, and circumstances that can be considered, but a hard fast rule. . . B.S.

[D.A.Bagin]

Eric,

I agree with you 100%, however, the A.M.C.A. uses that catch-all rule, "As it left the factory". This would negate it being judged because we all know a re-stamp, no matter how good, done by anyone other than on the original assembly line of the "Factory", is not, "As it left the factory". Pretty soon there will be no bikes that fit that requirement. LOL.

[exeric]

On your specific query, at least you seem to have 1946 engine cases. I'd say the engine numbers are bogus, so enjoy riding and keep the bike off the judging field.

The AMCA is not the police, and has no business questioning the authenticity of a serial number, unless it doesn't jive with the claimed year of the motorcycle. If the cases are '46, the serial number is '46, and the owner is a member of the AMCA then he has the right to have his motorcycle judged by the AMCA. There are many examples of wonky numbers that have been done by dealers, and have been accepted by the state the bike is registered in.

[Steve Slocombe]

On the earler VL Big Twins all the model types are run together and the small twin RLs get a separate sequence. For the ohv models I would expect the E, F, EL and FL serial numbers to be interleaved, that is 46EL1234 could be followed by 46FL1235. Again on the VLs the belly numbers typically run say 2-300 behind the engine numbers and are in a different font. This suggests the cases are machined and matched first, then the cases are pulled from a stock of a few hundred, completed, and engine numbers are added later with a different set of punches. You can find early year bikes with belly numbers from the preceding model year, for instance my 36VLH1041 has 1935 belly numbers and neither have been molested. On your specific query, at least you seem to have 1946 engine cases. I'd say the engine numbers are bogus, so enjoy riding and keep the bike off the judging field.

[46CHF]

If it is a number job it's a very good one and I would not be concerned with them provided I had a clean matching title in hand I do believe the belly numbers should be a lower sequence than the vin number though

[Chris Haynes]

There's also a test that exists (I know some law enforcement agencies use) that will show evidence of the old number. I believe this test somehow detects the compaction from the original stamping on the underlying and still existing pad.

That won't work if the number boss has been welded, which this one appears to have been.

[40 Nuck]

There's also a test that exists (I know some law enforcement agencies use) that will show evidence of the old number. I believe this test somehow detects the compaction from the original stamping on the underlying and still existing pad.

[40 Nuck]

Not an expert on this kind of thing, but do understand that the numbers on the bellies reflect the number of case mfg in sequence for all E's, EL's combined, whereas the serial no. reflected the number related to that specific model (e.g., E, EL). The numbers wouldnt be expected to match. For example, if there were 2458 E's and 4418 EL's mfg to the date of this case, then it would be OK, I think. The total of E's and EL's adding up to 6876 + 1000 (first ser. no. being 1000)=7876. As to the validity of the serial #, I wouldn't pretend to be able to help you there.

[esliders_1]

Chuck
I am not very sure about the match.
There are some similarities between both sides still.
The left is 46-??76 (not exactly clear) and the right 46-7876.
The font looks kind of different as well.
The VIN number 46FL5418 is much too earlier to compare with 46-7876.
What do you reckon? Have a look at a the pics.


IMG_46FL5418_2.jpg

[Chuck#1848]

Great thanks for looking and adding comments.
To make things more interesting will try to add the belly number.
Looks quite seriously ''doctored''.
Sure it will not impair the performance of the bike when it will be ready running.
Wish you all great day.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15529[/ATTACH]

esliders_1

Both halves of the case should have numbers.......it's a bonus if they match

[esliders_1]

Great thanks for looking and adding comments.
To make things more interesting will try to add the belly number.
Looks quite seriously ''doctored''.
Sure it will not impair the performance of the bike when it will be ready running.
Wish you all great day.

IMG_46FL5418_1.jpg