1932 VL timing and timing mark

[loch]

In response to Jarek,

Hey Ioch, I bought this book on ebay and somehow I couldn't get to it. I never knew English well, and since I'm getting older and I don't have anyone to talk to maintain my knowledge of the language .I didn't feel up to it. My reading could only be at a superficial level - let's say 50% understanding. Recently I came up with the idea that I could use a translator to take pictures of page after page. That's how I read the introduction and the first chapter and I have to say that it promises to be a good book. A bit uncomfortable because of the small letters and obviously not everything is completely correct but this way there is a chance that I will read it.

Newkirk's "The Old Man and the Harley" is a so-so read. There are parts of it, the actual story about his family and father just before and during WW2 are excellent. The rest of it, well it diminishes a really good story. Newkirk could have left out the superficial discussion of his misplaced feelings toward the Japanese in San Fransisco and his strange treatise of who's who about who his family is connected with in the here and now. The rest is a very a good read. I also tried to reread Zen and just couldn't get into it. As a young man just out of college it was a book of the present. As a mature man, hopefully wiser, it just sounds like Pirsig is whining about all of the things that we all whine about until we realize that every generation whine about the same thing, until we realize that the whining is just a cyclic part of life.

Conversely, The Lone Rider (Beard) and Jupiters Travels (Simon) I found to be difficult reads because I found them to be poorly written. Each for their own reasons which I won't get into here. But don't let me sway you. If you're planning a long distance journey on an old machine, as I am, you should read everything you can find.

Definitely read "Motorcycle Adventurer" - excellent read. Well at least the parts of Clancy's actual travels - as told by Frazier.

And my personal favorite, "Across America by Motor-Cycle" (Shepherd). This one is so good I'm re-reading it. Just an excellent depiction of early 20th century America from a foreigner's point of view. It doesn't get much better than this.

[loch]

Hi All!

This past weekend the '32 VL, which normally starts on the first kick, refused to start. I went through the usual motions of checking fuel and superficial electrical issues with no luck. Knowing there was fuel getting to the carburetor and knowing there are no air leaks I proceeded to investigate the situation with the circuit breaker and the timing. Sometimes you just know when it isn't going to start because there's no spark. No visible indicators - just that gut feeling when you kick it over and there isn't even an attempt to start. My guess, the Sergeant was being obstinent because the day before I took out the modern machine.

Anyway, I discovered there was not a hint of electricity at the circuit break. I used the test light I usually use to set the breaker at just opening when the timing mark is aligned in the window.

This discovery led me to an Internet search for procedures for when such a thing occurs. And that led me back to this post - my original post from when I was just getting the VL running. This information herein is invaluable. Thank you for all of the replies!

I would also like to reinvigorate the post because some people might find it interesting and as valuable as I did.

I would also like to point out that the magazine identified by Exeric is not Popular Mechanics but Modern Mechanix. I went looking for it because this kind of information can be hard to find sometimes. I also like to go to the source. A PDF version can be found free online if you just search the title, year and month.

Onward I go with troubleshooting the VL.

Best regards,
Loch

[Jarek]

Jarek, I also believe that when considering troubleshooting an issue one should always begin with the simplest things. This is a practice I continue to remind myself about because it is so easy to overlook the obvious.

Lastly, if you have a VL, and if you have not read The Old Man And The Harley, you really should. An excellent read about a young man who, in 1939, buys a 1930 VL and rides it cross country.

Regards,
Loch

Hey Ioch, I bought this book on ebay and somehow I couldn't get to it. I never knew English well, and since I'm getting older and I don't have anyone to talk to maintain my knowledge of the language .I didn't feel up to it. My reading could only be at a superficial level - let's say 50% understanding. Recently I came up with the idea that I could use a translator to take pictures of page after page. That's how I read the introduction and the first chapter and I have to say that it promises to be a good book. A bit uncomfortable because of the small letters and obviously not everything is completely correct but this way there is a chance that I will read it.

IMG_3859.jpeg

[Jarek]

Three days ago I started the engine for the first time since purchase VL. During the first few starts, I poured some fuel into one cylinder because it didn't want to start. All parts needed fresh oil. Now,after adjustments it's better, but I need to ride it for a while and see how it behaves while riding. The fact is that the motorcycle was not used for a long time.
I set the ignition to 5/16 in the max grip roll position towards me.(the manual advance grip roll max towards me )
Now it's quite good, but I have to start the engine in different configurations (cold, warm, after running, etc.)
I don't have enough opinions yet about which will be better.

Thanks for the book recommendation - I bought a used one on eBay.
I also recommend a book about motors. Initially, I read it in English(it wasn't a speed read), but when I got it in Polish, I didn't finish the English version.

IMG_2816.jpeg

[loch]

Thanks, RichO! This is one of the things I was unsure about. I know when I start I grab the manual advance grip and roll it towards me to start it. I wasn't sure what I was doing. Retarding it, or advancing it? I know it rotates the circuit breaker assembly CCW. For my machine I roll the grip all the way to the stop and then back slightly, and the bike starts with the circuit breaker in that position, usually on the first ignition-on kick and with two primer kicks with the ignition off.

and the points should just be opening at the narrow end of the timer cam with the ignition fully advanced, that is with the timer anti-clockwise against its stop as you look at it.

The carburetor and ignition set-up is good when the bike notably slows down at idle when the ignition is retarded.

Starting Motor... ...Spark should be fully advanced, or nearly so.

(Harley Davidson Rider's Handbook Harley Davidson Motor Co. Milwaukee, Wis., U.S.A. 74 and 80 Twin Models (reprinted in 1930 thru 1949 models, Operation, Maintenance, Specifications)

I argue that rolling the grip and moving the circuit breaker CCW is advancing the spark, please see Steve's reply above. I think it's important to come to a consensus about terminology and actual condition of the components we talk about in these forums. It's easy to get confused and espouse incorrect information. And it can be even more confusing for new members (like me) who are also new to caring for these old machines. Advance and retard are important terms that are used a lot in these discussion we have. So we really need to get it right.

Thank you for your insight about hill climbing. I have not had an opportunity to do this yet as I'm still apprehensive about about riding the VL on the roads around my Philly suburb. It will just take time and patience to get to the point where I consider myself skilled enough to handle the machine in heavy traffic.

Best regards,
Loch

[RichO]

Loch I believe you might have that backwards. You retard to start it then advance it after it starts. If your pulling a big hill,and it starts to pull hard you can free the motor up some by feeding in a little retard.

[loch]

Jarek, I also believe that when considering troubleshooting an issue one should always begin with the simplest things. This is a practice I continue to remind myself about because it is so easy to overlook the obvious.

Lastly, if you have a VL, and if you have not read The Old Man And The Harley, you really should. An excellent read about a young man who, in 1939, buys a 1930 VL and rides it cross country.

Regards,
Loch

[loch]

Dear Steve, thanks again for your insight. I already removed the front cylinder and did notice on the gasket evidence of a leak. I’ve already cleaned up the cylinder and gaskets and reinstalled them. I checked the breaker timing and gap.

Jarek, the more time I spend with my VL the more understand that everything is intuitive and unique to a particular machine. For example, Steve’s comments regarding finding that correct spot for setting the advance for starting the engine are very accurate.

By change the ignition, if mean you adjust the advance with the hand grip, then I think it’s standard practice to advance the spark when staring and after warm up retard it. Advancing when going down the road. If you mean, when do you adjust the Ignition as a maintenance step, when I have it set so that the engine starts every time on the first kick. And then suddenly it doesn’t, even then, I think it should be the last thing to check. I proved this to myself in this case by identifying the gasket leak. Sorry for the long response. I just want to convey that I have learned it is a matter of experience with your particular machine.

[Jarek]

The VLs were designed for about 70 octane fuel so will take more advance today.

My question is: do you always change the ignition or only when the engine demands it?
Do you have a fixed rule or an intuitive one?

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Loch, if the bike was running OK before then you should not need to check the valve timing gears. The flatheads are very forgiving, and will usually start with ignition and carburetor well out of optimum, but can afterwards be dialled in from there. Any problems will alwys be on the hotter running front cylinder. As I said earlier, I'd remove the front head to check the gasket is not blowing, and make sure the primers are well tightened down before doing any timing adjustments.

[exeric]

I think this was originally from a 'Popular Mechanics' magazine. Just a nice piece of vintage information.

MCtips_zpsb9ac4dfe.jpg

[otis71]

I believe the filter he mentioned is on the fuel line as it enters the carburetor, same as used through 1965.

[loch]

Dear Steve, Thank you for all of the great information! By your description I did measure the 5/16 BTDC correctly. But I will need to remove the cylinder head again to check where TDC locates the piston top surface.

Let's assume that the piston is flush with the cylinder top surface at TDC. If 5/16 BTDC places the flywheel timing mark noticeably closer to the forward side (nearer to 1/4 BTDC) of the window does it mean the timing gears must not be correctly installed?

I'm asking because I have not had the gear case cover off since I've had the machine. I think it's one of those things I dread, and without good reason.

If you mean a filter screen in the tank, my tanks are replacement tanks, reproduction tanks of a later model year. I'm not sure how they differ but I will check to see if there is a filter and if it's clean. I suspect it's clean however because I checked fuel flow at the inlet to the filter at the carburetor. The flow was good and the screen was clean.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Loch, first check your front head gasket is not blowing and that your primer cups are tightened down. 1932 is first year for the gas filter, so check the strainer mesh. On ignition timing, the baseline is 5/16" BTDC, so you will need to adjust if the piston top is not flush with the cylinder at tdc. At this point, the flywheel timing mark should be in the middle of the hole in the left crankcase, and the points should just be opening at the narrow end of the timer cam with the ignition fully advanced, that is with the timer anti-clockwise against its stop as you look at it. Retarding the ignition means the spark is later, and piston nearer to top dead center. The VLs were designed for about 70 octane fuel so will take more advance today. The detailed ignition setting is swamped by the amount of adjustment on the left handlebar spiral, so you just need to find a spot where the bike starts, runs and idles satisfactorily. The carburetor and ignition set-up is good when the bike notably slows down at idle when the ignition is retarded.

[loch]

Hi Everyone!

It's been a while. I've been trying to get run in miles, not easy considering my lack of experience with the machine, the errant weather patterns and ongoing mechanical issues.

I thought I had the timing to perfection. And then... one day I started the bike with no issue, first kick as usual. Then it stalled under load (as soon as I tried to engage the clutch).

I restarted, again. This happened several times. I pushed back into the driveway and went at restarting, no it wouldn't start as usual. And when I did get it started I would idle as it would before.

I check the timing, gap, tappet clearance, fuel flow, when I did get it started again I checked for air leaks. Noticed oil residue on the backside of front cylinder head gasket.

Decided to remove front cylinder head. Surprisingly clean considering I haven't run it for more than a 10 - 15 minutes the few times I did manage to ride it.

I decided to check the timing according to piston position. I think I miscalculated - measured BTDC from top of cylinder rather than actual TDC. I'm guessing the piston does not travel to a point where it's level with the top of the cylinder. I realized this because I remember the flywheel mark was closer to the 1/4 side of the window than the center (5/16).

So my questions:

If the timing is set to 1/4 (forward edge of window) will it cause repetitive kick-backs when attempting to start?

Assuming the timing is set with the mark at 5/16, if I retard the spark does it move the spark occurrence to a point where the piston distance is greater than 5/16 or less than 5/16?

And finally, is 5/16 the position to use when setting the circuit breaker to "just beginning to open"?

Some of these questions I think I know the answer, but hearing it from people more knowledgable will give me the confidence to go back at this armed with, well, confidence in what I'm doing.

Regards,
Loch

P.S. my wife is becoming concerned that I'm going kill myself on this thing.