Another judging question...

[fillibuster]

Fred, Tom's pointing out that he checks the box "subscribe to this thread" to those threads he plans to monopolize, and the forum software notifies him with an email every time anyone subsequently posts to it, calling him back here, to append another comment.

That's kinda like "trolling", but I don't see it as a "troll under the bridge", but as a fisherman trolling for what interests him. Perhaps I couldn't tolerate sitting in Cotten's boat all day with him (and he'd probably throw me overboard after an hour!), but I AM interested in where he casts his line. I'm trying to say, especially to you, Gerry, that I see gold in his posts, amidst much sand (admittedly), you just have to pan for it a little. Sometimes we have to do that with our closest fellow club members.

on topic, re Cotten's question: I think that Steve Dawdy said (in St Paul) that a previously over-looked item could be docked at a bike's next judging, but that a lower score would not result in a lower award, rather, the score sheet would say "no change". Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[Sargehere]

Tom,
You can tell your people to talk to our people, especially on judging. What exactly do you mean by this little subscription box?

RF

Fred, Tom's pointing out that he checks the box "subscribe to this thread" to those threads he plans to monopolize, and the forum software notifies him with an email every time anyone subsequently posts to it, calling him back here, to append another comment.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Paps, yes we try to avoid 'pre-judging', but often you find first time entries where the engine/frame/numbers are fine, but numerous small hardware items are off. Getting over 90 or 95 points is then often dependent on a blizzard of quarter points on missing lockwashers, cadmium versus parkerized screws, incorrect bolts and so on. I don't have a problem in pointing these out to the owner on Saturday, if asked, so he can find a handful of hardware and do some wrenching at the meet. The system is trying to get restored bikes back to as they were built rather than show how clever (or not) the judges are on Sunday.

[Paps]

Several years back, at Davenport. I witnessed a couple of folks explaining to an owner what the judges were going to nail him on that his bike had incorrect. The owner spent the rest of that Saturday finding the correct parts from vendors at the meet. I thought it was rather nice of the folks to warn the owner. It gave the owner time to quickly correct his machine.

[redfred84]

Tom,
You can tell your people to talk to our people, especially on judging. What exactly do you mean by this little subscription box?

RF

[T. Cotten]

Docked

RF!

Thanks.
I can tell my people: yes.

...Cotten
PS: That little email thread subscription box works.

[redfred84]

docked

Tom,
I'm amazed at the amount of time you have to monitor this, and various other lists. How do you get anything done?
As for an in-accuracy being pointed out by either the owner/displayer, or detected by a volunteer Judge, the machine still gets docked ( I call it dinged ). If something is wrong, then something is wrong. It's all about the machine.
RF.

[T. Cotten]

volunteered faults

I've witnessed many owners point out flaws, in-accuracies, and incorrect details of their own machines to judges. Most of the people I've witnessed at the judged & judging level in our AMCA are not the glitzy type looking for trophies & fame as some may speculate. Most seem to be striving for accurate representation of correctness for the machine, period. A lot of the guys will hunt, scavenge, and learn, then painstakingly build, restore, and preserve their masterpieces for this cause. Then, upon reaching a satisfactory goal or level of their efforts, they may choose to "retire" the machine from judging, and promptly start using it. That's what I do. My 99 3/4pt '47 Chief is now my loaner bike for visiters. They run pretty good when done up right!
Back to your insight though, I've seen a lot of displayers volunteer their in-accuracies. It's all about learning, and preserving.
RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA.

RF!

So do they still get docked, or don't they?

....Cotten

[redfred84]

I've witnessed many owners point out flaws, in-accuracies, and incorrect details of their own machines to judges. Most of the people I've witnessed at the judged & judging level in our AMCA are not the glitzy type looking for trophies & fame as some may speculate. Most seem to be striving for accurate representation of correctness for the machine, period. A lot of the guys will hunt, scavenge, and learn, then painstakingly build, restore, and preserve their masterpieces for this cause. Then, upon reaching a satisfactory goal or level of their efforts, they may choose to "retire" the machine from judging, and promptly start using it. That's what I do. My 99 3/4pt '47 Chief is now my loaner bike for visiters. They run pretty good when done up right!
Back to your insight though, I've seen a lot of displayers volunteer their in-accuracies. It's all about learning, and preserving.
RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks again Chris,

But my original question is about what the judges miss, not what they think is wrong but isn't.

And about how the owners feel about bringing it up.

Many that I talk to just keep their mouths shut.
Who can blame them?


...Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Okay,
Johnny outlines how the system works for correcting judge's mistakes, and Chris points out how many of the judged are often willing to remind the judges of faults they are not aware of..

If I may re-phrase my question:
Is there any "amnesty for honesty" on the spot, or will it get the machine docked anyway?

....Cotten

I had one owner question 3 or 4 items we thought were incorrect. I went to my factory photos and we were wrong about one of them. It was instantly corrected. Instead of earning a 97 he got a 97.25.

[T. Cotten]

Okay,
Johnny outlines how the system works for correcting judge's mistakes, and Chris points out how many of the judged are often willing to remind the judges of faults they are not aware of..

If I may re-phrase my question:
Is there any "amnesty for honesty" on the spot, or will it get the machine docked anyway?

....Cotten

[redfred84]

Thanks for your patience, and willingness to go over those items. I've already spent 3 hours this morning on the phone with restorers & consultants involved in the gorgeous Crocker we judged at Dixon this weekend. (and it's only 9:24 am here). A very controversial Marque, these Crockers, and very difficult to reference, however, both the judging, and the displaying parties are working diligently to get the facts straight so as to provide a future reference of these great machines.
I served as the lead Judge on this machine at it's last showing, but had the help of 2 other Crocker owners, and a fellow who was recently involved with the restoration of 2 others. I had also done some research on my own, as we had a heads-up with it's pre-registration. It has been a very, VERY constructive experience. Especially with all those involved being so patient and willing to share. We have an official appeals process just for such occasions, and we are setting up a data bank to avoid future miss-conceptions.
Together, with such dedicated input that we are enjoying with our members, we can strive to preserve the history these bike represent. I for one, fully appreciate the dedication & hard work that both the restorers/owners, and the Judges display for this outcome. To capture the correctness of the machine, as it left the factory for the dealer is a very difficult, and controversial process. But one I feel necessary to capture this for future generations to reference.
I applaud all the entrants who take the time & effort to re-store, and/or preserve their machines for this cause. It is thankless and exhausting job, but years from now, perhaps all our efforts will be worthwhile when the machine still exists to portray it's signifigance.

RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA

[Paps]

Tom
I can only speak for one bike and the judging process it went thru.....my '29 JD.
1. Proof that the motor would run was required each time.
2. The bike was awarded Jr. First with 22 items noted as incorrect.
3. Upon returning home I prepared my documentation, contacted the leader of the team who judged the bike and he and I discussed ALL items which had been noted.
4. After discussion and presentation of documentation it was agreed that 11 of the 22 noted items where ACTUALLY CORRECT.
5. Next time out the bike (with documentation for 11 items) and corrected 11 items recieved its Senior.

In my experience, the judges were as interested in increasing their knowledge base as i was interested in making the bike as "correct" as possible.
I feel that my bike raised the bar at the time it went thru, and i am sure other '29 JD's have even raised it higher since. The knowledge base continues to increase.......if everything goes as it should with the judging system.

Not a short reply as requested, but i hope worth the time to read.

I hold great admiration in your short reply. Sounded like the perfect senerio to me. Paps

[jww]

Tom
I can only speak for one bike and the judging process it went thru.....my '29 JD.
1. Proof that the motor would run was required each time.
2. The bike was awarded Jr. First with 22 items noted as incorrect.
3. Upon returning home I prepared my documentation, contacted the leader of the team who judged the bike and he and I discussed ALL items which had been noted.
4. After discussion and presentation of documentation it was agreed that 11 of the 22 noted items where ACTUALLY CORRECT.
5. Next time out the bike (with documentation for 11 items) and corrected 11 items recieved its Senior.

In my experience, the judges were as interested in increasing their knowledge base as i was interested in making the bike as "correct" as possible.
I feel that my bike raised the bar at the time it went thru, and i am sure other '29 JD's have even raised it higher since. The knowledge base continues to increase.......if everything goes as it should with the judging system.

Not a short reply as requested, but i hope worth the time to read.