35 year rule has this finally reached a limit of what is an antique? 1985 is it?

[Steve Swan]

Unfortunately as we all get older, we find it hard to believe that motorcycles, cars etc that were new when we were new are now antiques. But they are, sorry to say. A whole new generation of bikers have discovered Shovelheads and Ironheads, mainly because they were cheap and considered "cool". This is leading them to the older bikes. But regardless, next year at Oley we may see a perfectly preserved 1984 Evolution Softail!!!! That is going to freak out a lot of people, but it is not the rules. It is the passing of time and you can not fight that. To many younger people "drum " brakes are a foreign concept same as the rotary telephone, script, cassette players, carburetors, kick starters, and the guy with the knife sharpening truck coming around the neighborhood. I recently had a friends "younger" girlfriend stare in utter amazement at me describing seeing Star Wars in the movie theater, the original release.

Now that doesn't seem that long ago to me, but it is, and that is why 35 years is an established age for antiques because you just need to put a number to it. I am probably a wee bit younger then the average age of AMCA members, and I feel it too. But time marches on, it doesn't give a damn if we don't want it to happen. Let it go boys, one day our grandchildren will be marveling at the beautiful restoration of a Twin Cam, go figure.

imho considering ALL the participation on the thread, Archtect says it best to date.

[Architect]

Unfortunately as we all get older, we find it hard to believe that motorcycles, cars etc that were new when we were new are now antiques. But they are, sorry to say. A whole new generation of bikers have discovered Shovelheads and Ironheads, mainly because they were cheap and considered "cool". This is leading them to the older bikes. But regardless, next year at Oley we may see a perfectly preserved 1984 Evolution Softail!!!! That is going to freak out a lot of people, but it is not the rules. It is the passing of time and you can not fight that. To many younger people "drum " brakes are a foreign concept same as the rotary telephone, script, cassette players, carburetors, kick starters, and the guy with the knife sharpening truck coming around the neighborhood. I recently had a friends "younger" girlfriend stare in utter amazement at me describing seeing Star Wars in the movie theater, the original release.

Now that doesn't seem that long ago to me, but it is, and that is why 35 years is an established age for antiques because you just need to put a number to it. I am probably a wee bit younger then the average age of AMCA members, and I feel it too. But time marches on, it doesn't give a damn if we don't want it to happen. Let it go boys, one day our grandchildren will be marveling at the beautiful restoration of a Twin Cam, go figure.

[exeric]

My interest in the 35 year rule is academic, and I was here to enjoy a civil debate with fellow members. Regardless of what I think, the AMCA makes the rules through volunteer administrators who try to do things for the good of the club. At the end of the day, my primary interest lies in my shop, with my bikes, and the fulfillment I get from a hobby I have devoted so much time, effort, and money to. I love the AMCA, but their rules have little affect on my old motorcycle pursuit. Just like water, the AMCA will seek it's own level and I'll just float along on my rubber raft I have no interest in turning the 35 year rule into a militant issue.

[frichie68]

Antique means 35 years old, clear as crystal. If you change that, you change the people who can access the club.

Yep, that's the way I see it.

[govmule84]

Again, Liam; I think you're taking issue with things that only time can change. Back in the mid '90s, a generation of elderly collectors left this earth, but couldn't take their hoarded jewels with them. Hence, a lot of great vintage parts hit the swap meets. That will happen again. Bad attitudes have been in the motorcycle world for many, many years, and a lot of people seem to like putting on that mantle of bad ass-a-tude for some screwy Freudian reason. If someone treats you poorly at an AMCA meet, you just move on. Assholes are the minority in this club.

The topic of this thread is the 35 year rule, and people have made cogent remarks about their stance on that time frame. You seem to have more of a problem with the attitudes of some members, and attached that to this 35 year rule. I don't think your remarks, tangent to the 35 year rule hold water.

I'm providing support for my position that the rule is just fine as it is. I don't take issue with any of this stuff; I'm perfectly happy as a member.

That said, I understand pretty well why this club looks as homogeneous as it is.

My opinion and a buck-fiddy will get you a coffee at the diner. But if you can't see how attempting to make "antique" even more narrow than it is now, then I'm not going to be able to show you the light. Antique means 35 years old, clear as crystal. If you change that, you change the people who can access the club.

[ihrescue]

Does the Club have a "mission statement", Folks?

Has it been fulfilled?

....Cotten

Replying to Cotten's question about AMCA mission Statement, here it is quoted from the Club's Policies and Procedures Manual -

AMCA Mission Statement
“The purpose of the Antique Motorcycle Club of America Inc. shall be the collection, restoration, preservation, use and enjoyment of antique motorcycles at least 35 years old as well as parts, accessories and literature pertaining to the history of these motorcycles. The AMCA shall encourage members to form Chapters anywhere there is interest in the hobby/sport. It shall also provide for and regulate National Meets, Road Runs and the Judging Program. Through the avenue of common interest in antique motorcycles, the AMCA shall encourage good fellowship, brotherhood, respect and camaraderie among all men and women.”

I would say as written it has been fulfilled. There are a number of other places specifically in the P&Ps where the 35 year identification of antique is mentioned. I would say that if members want to change the way "antique" is defined then a draft of a proposed mission and other areas of the P&Ps need to be developed and sent to the board for official club discussion.

Mike Love
AMCA Forum
Moderator

[T. Cotten]

Does the Club have a "mission statement", Folks?

Has it been fulfilled?

....Cotten

[exeric]

Again, Liam; I think you're taking issue with things that only time can change. Back in the mid '90s, a generation of elderly collectors left this earth, but couldn't take their hoarded jewels with them. Hence, a lot of great vintage parts hit the swap meets. That will happen again. Bad attitudes have been in the motorcycle world for many, many years, and a lot of people seem to like putting on that mantle of bad ass-a-tude for some screwy Freudian reason. If someone treats you poorly at an AMCA meet, you just move on. Assholes are the minority in this club.

The topic of this thread is the 35 year rule, and people have made cogent remarks about their stance on that time frame. You seem to have more of a problem with the attitudes of some members, and attached that to this 35 year rule. I don't think your remarks, tangent to the 35 year rule hold water.

[jorrow]

Well said govmule84.

[frichie68]

Interesting. Reading between the lines, "If you can't afford at least a few Knuckles, you don't belong here.".......almost.

[govmule84]

...this is the ANTIQUE Motorcycle Club of America and I think that should mean something.

It does. It means that a given motorcycle is 35 years old. And until that rule gets changed, acting as though the definition is somehow not stringent enough (as many do, as this thread shows) makes the AMCA unpalatable to people who don't meet the unwritten definition.

A lot of your complaints are things that can't be controlled; such as high prices, pissy attitudes by some members, and the age of many members.

They're observations, stated as gently as I know how. However, if the prices are abnormally high, and the attitudes are poor, and the age is advanced, is that good for the club's longevity? Are more stringent regulations on 'what is an antique' going to fix any of those problems, or exacerbate them?

I'm not suggesting making bike donations to young riders, but perhaps some understanding and acceptance of a rider on a bike that is still legitimately old (even if it's not necessarily the holy grail for many AMCA members) might garner more goodwill than "I can be an elitist because..."

This club could very well go back to the days of membership in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands. Coin, and stamp collecting used to be very popular hobbies but now those hobbyists are scarce.

That's called "death." Pitch that to the board members; see how much support that idea gets. But if you truly think a great contraction would improve the club, then maybe I'm dumber than I think I am. Given the average age of the club, we're going to see this happen whether we like it or not.

...younger members should peruse the social benefits of the AMCA to make the changes they want, to find motorcycles, and parts, to make new friends, and make the AMCA stronger.

Can you outline a game plan for that? For having a group of people that actively avoid the AMCA make it better? Because if I'm a member of a place that doesn't really seem to value me, staying around to improve it wouldn't be my course of action, and I have a feeling that wouldn't be yours, either.

I really am getting tired of the 'what I can't afford' attitude...

I can appreciate that. But if the divide between what people can afford and what is "really" an antique motorcycle widens very much farther, I think you'll have people who are interested in truly old motorcycles who never join the club because they feel no connection.

I feel you join a club and you accept the rules they have.

I wouldn't disagree. So maybe that 35-year-rule that we've lived by rather happily for the past umpteen years might be a good one to keep in place.

[BigLakeBob]

I really am getting tired of the 'what I can't afford' attitude. I would love to have a '58 corvette or a any year Henderson, but its not in my budget, so I appreciate what I have and also what others have without complaining. You get into a hobby and join a club you like and can afford, and you can like a hobby and join and club you can't afford but appreciate it too, just don't complain about what is costs. I am a laborer not a doctor (not to single out a profession), so I live within my means and am satisfied with the course of life I've chosen.

I was a chopper guy in my youth and will always love them, not for me any more, health reasons. Over the past several years I have noticed at the meets a certain group of younger people doing just as you say, taking older chopped parts and making good of them, and good of them they do. Very ingenuous. I really like what they fabricate.

I feel you join a club and you accept the rules they have. I felt my '62FL chopper was not acceptable so I never went on a road run with it. My '69 FL wasn't old enough so I never went on a road run with it when it wasn't old enough. Pretty soon the (with much effort to be a non-chopper), the '62 will be able to go on road runs. I dealt with and accepted those rules.

I also do not believe you can drag someone into this hobby. You have to like and be able to afford old bikes, if not, join another club. Sorry, but it has become what it is. If I die tomorrow and my stuff goes to auction are you going to buy cheap and become a 'antique' club member or are you going to pass. Opportunities are all around us.

[exeric]

Fair enough, but as I said earlier, this is the ANTIQUE Motorcycle Club of America and I think that should mean something. I'm a member of the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club and I certainly don't expect them to include American, German, or British bikes in their club. A lot of your complaints are things that can't be controlled; such as high prices, pissy attitudes by some members, and the age of many members. I have never believed the AMCA needs to actively recruit new, younger members, and my reasoning is; you can't force people to like something as esoteric as antique motorcycles. That obsession is either in someone, or it's not. If that love for old bikes is in a person, they will seek out the AMCA. The AMCA is not a big club, and I believe it's membership peeked a few years ago, so it's probably getting smaller and will continue to shrink as mean old members drop dead. Also bear in mind that styles and tastes change with the passing years, and as people mature. This club could very well go back to the days of membership in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands. Coin, and stamp collecting used to be very popular hobbies but now those hobbyists are scarce.

I don't mean to sound selfish, but I don't feel compelled to give my stuff away to bring new blood into this hobby. I've never been rich, and every bike I have came very hard. I've had to learn skills, and do my own work because I could not afford to pay someone to do it. That journey of learning was probably the greatest benefit of this hobby, and also introduced me to many of the best friends I have. In that respect, I can be elitist because I have worked hard for what I have, but people who know me, know that I have never refused to help someone if I could, shunned a member because of their age, or hoarded parts. I went to my first AMCA National meet in the early '70s and those meets were much more social, and that is what spread the word about antique motorcycles, and helped members to network within the old motorcycle culture. In my opinion, younger members should peruse the social benefits of the AMCA to make the changes they want, to find motorcycles, and parts, to make new friends, and make the AMCA stronger.

[govmule84]

I'm gonna try to be respectful. Let's just tee that up so maybe feathers don't get ruffled quite so fast.

I'm Liam. I'm 34. Many of you know me as the big fat guy with very crazy hair who's usually half in the bag. I often wear a very dirty Waffle House T-shirt.

The AMCA has a recruiting problem; that much is clear. And the group needs youth in its ranks. I'm not going to sit here and sing the "poor me" blues; I have a few nice old bikes and I've been very lucky indeed to obtain them. But I truly wonder if some people here do consider the costs of these bikes, starting salaries for younger folks, and the cost of something like higher education that has risen dramatically. I'm an aberration. I'm a freak among people my age; next to no one has lots of old motorcycles. For most younger working cats, anything much older than either a Sporty, Shovel or a ratty/chopped Pan is relatively unobtainable.

It kind of sucks to hear a bunch of old guys, many of whom picked up some of their bikes reasonably, trying to keep someone else out because their bike's not "old enough." Man, everyone wants a Knuck or a Chief or some cool old bike, but the supply is very finite, and you ride what you got. "Old" is sort of a relative term. If I'm on an 80s or 90s era bike, and it's puking fluid and breaking down pretty regularly, I consider it old. I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

It's similar with the modified stuff. Some of the old guys had choppers and don't give a rip that that's what we have. But the amount of folks who pick something apart for being wrong, or reproduction, or worse...CHOPPED! is insanely high. With some of these fellas, it's like they think we wouldn't want to have a nice original bike. Most of us aren't chopping the machines, we are building from chopped parts we were able to pick up. Or when someone starts picking apart the wrong headlight or whatever on a bike... dude, we know. I know that often the spirit is in educating someone on the correct item for a given model or year, but sometimes it gets really nasty. Think about what a $1,200 headlight or something similarly dear represents to a younger member with people to feed at home. You can't just make "choppers" be the theme of a meet... people actually have to welcome the kids that might bring 'em. I wonder how many of the purist crowd realize that at at least a few of the meets, there are off-site chopper shows worked in so the young dudes have some way to show their bikes that are old. (Or Modern Classics, or whatever other silly nomenclature we should develop for a leaky Shovel.)

I joined the AMCA because I like old motorcycles. I don't feel a need to define what that is or means, especially if it makes someone feel excluded. We already have people who don't realize they can join even if they do not own an antique bike. Now when our membership is flagging, we are going to institute further arbitrary restrictions and rules? Look at Goodwood... and now we have Radwood, which in some way is retaliatory. Something gets lost when that happens. And the bad news is that it will keep happening. Groups will split off and do their own thing; no one wants to be persona non grata.

I'm not mad about this topic, I'm just asking a few of you to step back and recognize how hard it is for someone to acquire a beat-to-hell Ironhead that's been abused by half-a-dozen owners and try to learn enough and earn enough to keep that bucket of bolts on the road, nevermind restore it. I don't want to call anyone out by name, but man, when I hear talk of getting the board to further isolate the purists from the proletariat, it makes me wonder exactly why I am taking out my wallet to join a group with a high concentration of members who don't want me or my friends around.

I like some of the crotchety old folks, and I'm enamored by the things they know, have, and have learnt. I'm usually pretty willing to put up with a fair amount of bullpuckey to hang out with the greybeards, and I like busting horns and I have real thick skin. There are a few (some of you know me personally and know who you are when I mention you here) who go out of their way to take me under a wing and help me learn a little, but also are OK with me not being a carbon-copy of them, and I am so grateful to those members.

Sometimes, though, it feels like there are some people who just get their jollies sitting up in the top of the tree and kicking some of the others down. This is supposed to be fun. If it's not fun, then we're doing it wrong.

I hope this doesn't come off as snotty or entitled whining. I like the AMCA on the whole, warts and all, and I have had a richer life for having been friends with so many of its members. As a member, though, I think we can do better. I can't speak for anyone else, but I try to be the change I want to see.

Can you say the same?

[Steve Swan]

Sounds great, what age are you and what is your perspective?

without further introduction, here's govmule84's 2014 intro. looking fw'd to the convo!

"govmule84 govmule84 is offline
Fat & Cranky
Join Date
Dec 2014
Posts
57
Default New Guy from Coal country PA
Hey everyone,

New to the AMCA forums, not so new to old bikes.

I usually ride and build mongrel cut-up stuff. I try to only chop aftermarket items or stuff beyond saving, so I am usually not in direct competition with you guys for parts. That said, I do still often need help with old stuff.

I ride everything - Jap, sport, HD, old, new, I don't give a hoot. I like to be on a bike. I do this stuff for work and for pleasure. I drink a lot of beer and like hanging out with my wife and our kid.

Pleasure to meet you all!

-L."