Getting Judged - first time

[rbenash]

Hey folks. My '65 HD FLH restoration is done. Thinking about having it judged @ Jefferson meet this year.

So some judging/newbie questions.

Wondering - I am running the bike, till then. Figure I'll clean it all back up and trailer it to the meet. Is there a penalty for simple road use or how perfect does it need to be detailed?

It will definitely be cleaned up as I don't run in it in the rain - but was curious about that (perhaps minor) aspect of the judging process. Do you end up getting a hit/hits if you have a restoration that you are running and has some evidence of that? Or is it supposed to be perfect/trailered at this point if you are looking to have it judged as a restoration. Understand that you have to show that the bike runs, etc. But was even halfway thinking of riding it there and what challenge that might bring if I wasn't able to clean it up before being judged. Else I'll just clean it up and trailer it.

All the accessories on the bike are 65-66 NOS, but my understanding is that accessories on a resto are not included in the judging?

Really looking to see what the experts may have to say about the bike and that's my primary purpose.

I know about bringing reference material etc and how the overall process can end up a bit frustrating if you think your bike is "perfect" but that stuff I'm fine with, and will just deal with it as it comes. Interested in getting the "chit list" and then deciding what I think is worth correcting and if I want to continue with a next look at Eustis and or Oley next season. Something to work on over the winter

[pete reeves]

Hi Ray.
Check out the judging guidelines which can be found under the events section of this web site
It should answer most of your questions. Riding your bike is encouraged and there should be no deductions for using your bike in the way you have described. Accessories are not judged but must be from the same period as the bike.
Good luck.
Pete Reeves 860

[Chris Haynes]

One thing that always starts a debate with the 1965's it the chrome wrap around battery cover. 1965's came with only a top cover for the battery. True the wrap around cover can be found in the Fall 1965 Accessory Catalogue and carries a 1965 number. BUT!!! Fall of 1965 is the 1966 model year. 1965's all had a big black battery hanging on the side. No wrap around cover.
Your bike should be clean for judging. A bike in the restored class should appear as a new bike in the showroom. Bluing on pipes is acceptable.

[rbenash]

Thanks guys. The pipes will be blued. I've actually started to cause that over the last several weeks. What a joy.

Actually looks like I may not be able to make the Chesapeake meet. Could be tight. Coming back from an overseas trip that same weekend of the meet. Might have to wait for Oley at this point for the first look.

So what is the hit for the wrap cover Chris if it's there? Can't I just take the wrap off and leave the battery exposed and just the top plate and strap? My (perhaps uninformed) understanding is that the top plate and strap were the same and only the wrap cover was added to those. I understand this whole battery treatment thing has been a bone of contention for '65 resto reviews. OK with that, just wondering what the hit is and how to accommodate the wrap/no wrap thing. I do have the original top plate and strap along with the original wrap. Funny to me anyway how this is key, but what the heck it's all good info in understanding the model/year. For normal running I like to keep that cover on. If period accessories are not penalized - why would the wrap cover be an issue? Especially if the wrap cover was a '66 accessory?

Wondering what the hit is. Would it be a full point? Do you get hit if your exposed battery on a '65 is not of the original logo type?

Since it looks now that my first judge might just be Oley and not Chesapeake (not totally sure yet) it would be good to talk live to someone that is familiar with how judging has gone with '65 HD Pan as I may have some time to do some corrections as they might apply over the "off season" if you will.

If there are any judges that would be willing to talk live to help with my research that would be helpful.

If there are any '65 Pan owners watching please chime in on how your experience went and what your hit list was.

Love the bike, I spent a lot of time (10 years or so) to give it my best effort before executing the restoration and feel like I picked one of or perhaps the best person to do the actual work. Looking to the judging event/s community as a perspective on what is "correct". I have read the judging guide but when it comes to this year/model it's not totally clear in terms of how much detail down to the nut bolt washer mid year run changes, plating, finish etc, etc are accommodated or are even known and understood.

Is there such a thing as a true '65 Pan expert?

Yeah, yeah - I know it's a "collection of parts"

Looking forward to it.

[tomfiii]

Get it judged

Yes , it would be good to get judged at the Chesapeake meet ,as it would help guide you as to what may be questionable on your bike .

[Chris Haynes]

Some judges may take a 1/4 point, others may simply mention it.

[rbenash]

Thanks Chris. Funny - it is an accessory, is period correct so don't understand why that would be considered for a deduction when all the other accessories would be ignored if period correct. But hey what do I know. Thanks for the heads up.

[Tommo]

Here's a couple of shots of Dad's 65 pan straight out of the box.
I helped Dad uncrate and assemble this bike as there were no HD dealers in NZ at the time
It was shipped from the factory on the 9th of September 1964 and arrived in NZ on the Mariposa on the 3rd November 1964.
What you see on that bike is what was in the box with the bike.
There was nowhere to go and get extras.
We only had what the factory shipped to Dad.
Hope this is of interest

[rbenash]

Very nice, thanks for posting those photos Peter. Looks like mine is pretty close except I run with the cover on the battery. Looks like the pipes are chrome - is it dual exahust? My popsicle is white but I also have an NOS black. Grips are white, have black ones but want to leave the NOS white ones on since the bike always had white ones. In fact the originals are still on in these photos. I don't have my back rest pad mounted on the seat, debating whether I want to add it or just leave it off. Pretty much riding solo. I have the NOS windshield mounted now with the blue bottom and slider interesting to see yours is not the pointed style - neither is mine nor the original from the bike which I still have. Lost my camera that was used to take the photos since it's been home need to take some more pics. NOS passenger pegs and rubbers are on now was having the passenger peg cadmium redone at the time.

It looks like I'm probably not going to make it to the Chesepeak meet Going to be coming back from Europe that weekend so will probably need to wait for Oley at this point.

Anyway I will be interested in what the experts hit me with to see how much I really want to change up. Definitely spent a lot of time and research before doing the work (10 years). It's been in the family for quite awhile. Got all anal about proper plating, paint, nuts, bolts, washers, etc, etc. But hey I'm sure folks will always be able to find stuff to educate me on. It's a tough year.

As far as the battery - I'd like to run with it naked if I could find a nice logo battery shell for it. Otherwise for running purposes I do like it with the cover on.

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...Ride%20061011/

[Chris Haynes]

Thanks Chris. Funny - it is an accessory, is period correct so don't understand why that would be considered for a deduction when all the other accessories would be ignored if period correct. But hey what do I know. Thanks for the heads up.

That cover was not available during the 1965 sales season. It appeared during the 1966 sales season.

[rbenash]

Totally understand that Chris and have all the literature that shows your view.

My question as far as judging and this weird sort of controversy on 65's with battery covers is in my previous statement.

If accessories on a resto that are period correct are not considered then why pick out this battery cover and apply the hit?

Understand, I'm not picking a bone here so much as understanding the rulings in this specific case. Really don't understand how accessories that are period correct on a resto are not penalized, then hey if you have a 65 with the battery cover on it at a meet you get a 1/4 point, etc. It's either a period correct accessory or its not and the same rule should apply, but I'm not a judge and not challenging just trying to understand why the heck a period battery cover (a 66 accessory) get's you a whack, when period correct accessories are to be ignored.

I am not a judge and I respect the judges expertise but in my small mind there seems to be an in-congruency on this. The battery cover is an accessory or it's not, accessories are not part of judging (if period correct) or they are. Just trying to wrap my head around why the battery cover accessory on a 65 pan seems to be getting singled out somehow.

Maybe this is why some judges nick you and some don't on this one.

So the more general question would be on a restoration - if you have period correct accessories (within the correct year range for accessories) on the bike being judged as a resotration are they judged along with the bike or ignored (if period correct) for purposes of the judging rules on restorations as far as my understanding goes.

Tells me how much I should strip my bike for judging. If the tach accessory is not considered during judging do I get hit if the tach cable isn't routed correctly or is it ignored If I remove the battery cover and have a deka battery instead of an original logo HD battery do I still take a point hit?

That said I love the exposed battery on the '65 - but if I do one I want it to be a logo style as in the factory photos. Would love to have a nice shell I can work with if anyone has one for sale. Also as far as the covers. My understanding from the parts books is that the top cover for the battery is the same and same PN and that the cover accessory introduced in '65 used the same top cover.

[Chris Haynes]

Period means the accessory was available when the bike was being made. In this case the battery cover appeared with the 1966 Shovel heads so therefore is not correct for the 1965 Panhead period. As I said before it may be overlooked or simply mentioned on the judging sheet. I do know a judge from New York that will take points off for it.

[rbenash]

Good to know, thanks.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ray, I'll be at Chesapeake although not a Panhead expert. In addition to what the other judges have said, I'd recommend signing up as an apprentice and walking around with the judging team, which you're now allowed to do as an owner. You'll find the system is run by humans with a fantastic amount of knowledge but who don't always agree. These guys give up a whole day to put their knowledge back into our Club, and help out that modest proportion of members who want to play the game of getting bikes as they looked when new. We ride our bikes, so you are not penalised for signs of this. The system is not meant to generate trailer queens, and eastern US owners can run their bikes up through the system into Winners' Circle in one season, after which you 'only' need to maintain 85 points, and that's a lot of road wear.

[rbenash]

Sounds good Steve. Probably going to start going through the process @ Oley meet now since travel is going to get me back home on the weekend of the Chesapeake meet so not going to work out. I'll be planning to start going through the judging effort on my bike end of April next year unless I get down to FL for the Eustis meet. I assume I can sign up as an apprentice and do the same at any one of the meets, correct? That sound pretty cool, I'd like to do that. Thanks for the info.