Pioneer Award Open Debate and Information

[motorpickle]

Hey to All!!! Our AMCA forum has once again proved to be informative and inspiring, not to mention entertaining. I started this new thread for the sole purpose of gleaning information and opinion pertaining to a possible Pioneer Award for motorcycles from 1915(16) and older. I will then bundle the info and make a presentation to the BOD. The other thread had minor distractions(but good reading). Please keep all comments to the qualifications needed to achieve this award,i.e; age, starting/running condition, and content of original parts. Mass production should be eliminated from any criteria. SloJo---would you mind posting the reasons 1915 should be the cut-off date. You mentioned generally accepted standards that point to 1915. I am very interested in your educated opinion on this matter. Your posting (in my opinion) would be an excellent starting point for this discussion. All other opinion/info/comments will add to the pot and I'll keep stirring when needed. Thanks in advance for the help........
DonDz

[redfred84]

Good idea here Don,
We had a BOD tele-thon conference yesterday, and the Century Award was brought up. Since we are now forming the computer system to support is all, we will start to record who earns the Century Award. The award will go to the owner of the machine. If the machine is acquired by a new owner, then the new owner is eligble for a Century Award upon display of the bike. Perhaps this practice can be absorbed with the Pioneer Award?
I like the Pioneer Award Idea, as it praises the early bikes that were more of a chore to drive. The era before the 3 speed transmission.
I'm all for it, RF.

[LouieMCman]

I'm all for the Century and the Pioneer (pre-???) awards. Maybe Pioneer could be before any gears, maybe belt drives only, or ???, could be a number of different possibilities. But I'm like AKAHawg, let's NOT stop the Century award, I got two that's getting close and I've been waiting for for years.

[exeric]

Red Fred, I think a Pioneer award, and a separte Century award would be a fantastic feature at an AMCA event. It would encourage people to bring out those "rare" bikes that "rarely" get seen. Sometimes I think people believe there was nothing made before a '36 knucklehead so these awards would would reinforce the AMCA's mission to represent real antique motorcycles.

[rwm]

why not the gardella award for any pre 15 bike that runs like a top and moves freely around the swap meet grounds?

[motorpickle]

Pot Stir #1

I did not want to infuse my ideas until they were mentioned- and it has been! I would like to see the Century Award continued as is, with rolling qualification dates. The Pioneer Award would be something new and completely separate, other than the dates are overlapping at this time. As an example, a 1911 displayed at Davenport would receive both awards. All records would be maintained. I don't see why a Pioneer Roster could not be maintained for member enjoyment(with the owners permission) and possibly displayed on the website.

If our discussions are fruitful, I would like to present something to the Board at Davenport. This award should be a possibility for the 2012 season.
DonDz

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Don and All, a Pioneer Award sounds like a good idea, and you may want to get in touch with the Sunbeam Club in Britain which organises the Pioneer Run (registered trade mark). Here are a few quotes from their 73rd Run programme in March 2011.

'The Pioneer Register is open to all motorcycles and tricycles manufactured not later than 31 December 1914 but excludes 1915 models.' [So this is clearly meant meant for belt drive machines].

'Numbers have steadily grown, with more than 1800 on the Register now and a flow of applications coming in at the rate of 35-40 each year. Surprisingly, the supply of hitherto unknown Veterans appears to continue unabated...' [There were 370 bikes on the 2011 Run].

'It is the onus of the owner to prove the dating claimed. Some leeway is allowed regarding the fitting of non-original components as essentially the authenticity lies in the frame. [UK titles go on frame numbers]. But where major modifications additions and fabrication of frames and forks are involved a Pioneer Certificate would not be issued. [Earlier rules were much more prescriptive and demanded pictures of many original components].

'Today the biggest problem is to detect the 'look-alike' fakes, the 'autojumble' specials which are constructed solely to deceive. Every effort is made by the Dating Committee to cope with these problems and preserve the high standard necessary to retain credibilty, and so maintain our historic heritage and protect the owners of the genuine article.'

[D.A.Bagin]

I think whoever came up with this idea deserves a pat on the back. LOL. Single speed, chain or belt, pre?? Continue the Century Award. Must run. NO major reproduction items, IE: frame, cases. Cylinders are wear items.

[talbot-2]

Don,

I support the idea of a "Pioneer Award" for establishing a pre-1915 cycle award and registry. And to continue the "Century Award" for those cycles who achieve their one hundredth birthday. Keep in mind that there were cycles as early as 1908 that had 2-speed planetary transmissions, so they should be included as well in the criteria for a "Pioneer Award". Belt drive, chain drive, and any other type of drive should qualify. I suggest that the Pioneer cycles demonstrate that they can run, however some may not be rideable due to possible safety issues, i.e., tires. They could receive the award if they were shown for "display only" or for "judging purposes". A certificate of award should also be issued to the owner of the cycle. The same for the "Century Award". What about supplying a leather "medallion fob" to hang on the handbars of the cycle so the awards can be displayed as a badge of achievement?

Sounds like the British Pioneer Register would be a good model for a AMCA "Pioneer Award". I too believe that a "Pioneer Award" would be a fantastic feature at an AMCA event. It would encourage people to bring out those "rare" bikes that "rarely" get seen. The award would reinforce the AMCA's mission to represent real antique motorcycles.

[redfred84]

OK!
So we all kind of agree that a Pioneer Award for 1915 and earlier machines is in order? The bike has to run, and it must be registered in the local Chapter's display, or Judging to be eligible at a National Meet. Frame and engine must be authentic, and of the same year? (I'm just trying to narrow it down, and hammer out a few obvious details). More on the details can be ironed out (sometimes that's the hard part, which often gets personel, and makes enemies out of friends.............believe, me, that's what the BOD experiences!!!!).
With this all in mind, the award needs to be presented to the BOD in a business-like manner; How many awards? The design? The criteria? The logistics; who stores them, who ships them, who presents them, who handles appeals & complaints, are they recorded? Do we not record them in respect for the owners privacy? The list goes on.
My recommendation, from seeing how the machine works from the inside; is to have an "ART Ready" design ready for the presentation. This should be along the same lines as the Century Medalion, or the Honor Competition Award, at least in size and form. This size & form is already a winning idea, and predictable for our manufacturing and logistical needs (shipping, storing, etc..). It would probably be best to go with the manufacturer of these existing awards, thus the guidelines.
Don D. as the acting Chief Judge, and originator of this thread, can then present it to the BOD through his capacity, or I would be more than willing if he is not. Actually anyone can present it to the BOD, but I'm just offering a labor saver here.
My bets are that they will comply (despite my not-so-good record of getting other items through) as this is actually a great idea, is not extravagent, and makes good sense.
The more details we can hammer out before the presentation to the BOD, the better though.
This could be an excuse to go out and buy another bike too, just in case you may be lacking in the pre-'16 department. Some of the most fun I've had on bikes has been on pre-'16s, and Dispatch Tows.
WE need more stinking badges, RF.

[Slojo]

I'm all for the Century and the Pioneer (pre-???) awards. Maybe Pioneer could be before any gears, maybe belt drives only, or ???, could be a number of different possibilities. But I'm like AKAHawg, let's NOT stop the Century award, I got two that's getting close and I've been waiting for for years.

Good idea Louie (" maybe belt drives only,") Keep most of the Indians out!

Joe

[Slojo]

why not the gardella award for any pre 15 bike that runs like a top and moves freely around the swap meet grounds?

To kind Rob.
Joe

[Slojo]

Hey to All!!! Our AMCA forum has once again proved to be informative and inspiring, not to mention entertaining. I started this new thread for the sole purpose of gleaning information and opinion pertaining to a possible Pioneer Award for motorcycles from 1915(16) and older. I will then bundle the info and make a presentation to the BOD. The other thread had minor distractions(but good reading). Please keep all comments to the qualifications needed to achieve this award,i.e; age, starting/running condition, and content of original parts. Mass production should be eliminated from any criteria. SloJo---would you mind posting the reasons 1915 should be the cut-off date. You mentioned generally accepted standards that point to 1915. I am very interested in your educated opinion on this matter. Your posting (in my opinion) would be an excellent starting point for this discussion. All other opinion/info/comments will add to the pot and I'll keep stirring when needed. Thanks in advance for the help........
DonDz

"SloJo---would you mind posting the reasons 1915 should be the cut-off date. You mentioned generally accepted standards that point to 1915"

Don

As I mentioned in the beginning, pre 1910 should be the cut off for pioneer awards. If pre 1910 is chosen (probably won't be) The pioneer members and their bikes would be an exclusive crowd maybe to much so.

Pre 1910 bikes and their riders are truly the pioneers. The post 1910 bikes became sophisticated in design. Road systems were becoming fashionable. For many years the 1915 machines have been accepted as, "early machines", road runs are traditionally established as pre 1916 around the world and probably should be adhered to in this matter for sound logical reason. Unless we want to set a new trend, then pre 1910 or pre 1911?

All bikes should be demonstrated as ride-able and be ridden unless original tires can be demonstrated as viable tires yet to delicate, in these cases fully operated on a stand. In other words original rotted tires are not worth saving (on the bike) and should be replaced,

Originality? Engine cases, cylinders, ignition, carburetors, frames, main fork components. These should be minimum requirements. Secondary components including, handlebars, rims, spokes, hubs, seats and each piece of sheet metal as a category with at least a "percentage" (points, mathematical formula) of these items being included in the overall contents of the bike to achieve a certain criteria eligible for award. This standard should not be taken lightly.

Joe

[Buzz Kanter]

Sounds like a great idea. What about Motorcycle Cannonball bikes - with mods made for this event - like front brakes and lights?

[motorpickle]

Pot Stir #2

Thanks for the info Joe! I need some more member input again. I would have to say that the current Century awards that are given are rather casual and subjective by the standards outlined for the proposed Pioneer Award. For the Pioneer Award I agree that the major components should be genuine and that the machine should operate completely. Who would make this determination? Would these decisions be made at the meet where this machine is displayed. Let us suppose that the Chief Judge and chapter deputy judge visually inspect the machine. Is the owners word accepted on the originality questions? The Century award is loosely handled like this. I could devise a Pioneer Award check list and application form to be used to collect all of the information previously mentioned in this thread. This would help the records keeping for the AMCA. In fact it could also be used for the Century Award with applicable categories. What say the masses???.....
DonDz