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**Paps** · 03-05-2009, 02:31 PM

No argument here Chris. Paps

**flthead** · 03-05-2009, 05:15 PM

there was a '37 at jefferson last year going for the senior , had wrong brake stud [peened end ],wrong shifter stud [bolt + one nut style ] how did this bike with wrong year parts get to senior level ? owner said must be right parts

**Chris Haynes** · 03-05-2009, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by flthead View Post

there was a '37 at jefferson last year going for the senior , had wrong brake stud [peened end ],wrong shifter stud [bolt + one nut style ] how did this bike with wrong year parts get to senior level ? owner said must be right parts

95 points is a Senior. How many points off for for the brake stud and shifter stud?

**bmh** · 03-05-2009, 07:05 PM

I assume a whole team judged the bike in question. So three other judges watched another judge, judge with his hands and not his eyes? How did that happen? None of those judges ever read the handbook either? The member in question should've dealt with that on the field right then and there. The letter writing is his price to pay for not being more attentive during the judging.

**JohnR** · 03-05-2009, 07:51 PM

Why do people get there bikes judged?

**kval** · 03-06-2009, 07:15 AM

Chris
your friend with the 37, should have come up to either Robin or myself and IF the judge was incorrect in his deduction we would have fixed it right then.

any time there is a question about a deduction at any meet we are at the bike can be looked over again and the score fixed on the spot.

**jww** · 03-06-2009, 07:22 AM

Sounds to me like this is sometimes the price you pay to make the grade. Not the first time it has happened and probably not the last. I as well as LOTS of others have gone thru it and survived. I really don't remember it being that long and tedious. Just a phone call and a couple of e-mails. Our judging procedures and standards have and continue to improve. They will never be flawless.

**pete reeves** · 03-06-2009, 03:16 PM

Chris.

Give the judges a break it is easy to criticise, when YOU were not there.

1. Did the judges actually deduct points because they could FEEL the edge of the transfer, or was the deduction for some other reason?

2 Did the judges actually deduct points because they could not FEEL a raised coach line, or was the deduction for some other reason?

Did anybody see the judges run there fingers over the bike?

Yes Judges can make a wrong call; I have been in a team with you when even you have made a wrong call..

The judges can and have to judge bikes they are not familiar with, they do the best they can from memory, they don�t know every thing and they can make mistakes, they do not have the benefit of having all the books and photos available to study after the event.

What you probably don�t know is that the judges you are criticising stayed on to gone 3pm with long journeys ahead of them because of the number of bikes and the shortage of judges.

With out judges there will be no judging.

Some times it�s not possible to revue a judging sheet at the event because some members of the team have left or the bike has been put in its trailer or is no longer at the meet.

Mistakes can be rectified in calm and studied manor after the meet.

Peter Reeves 860

**Chris Haynes** · 03-06-2009, 03:47 PM

Nobody knows it all. That is why there is a team. But the team leader should stick around after the judging if at all possible.
The Fort Sutter Chapter has the judging at the Dixon, CA meet on Saturday. This works out well as nobody is in a rush to get home.
The bike in question had already earned a Senior First. This judges assumption that decals should not be able to be felt is ridiculous. As is the fact that he touched the bike.
I know that Kevin knows what is correct as I have shown him a NOS 1937 factory painted tank. The decal placed on top of the paint with no clear coat over it. Depending upon the year, either varnish or decal adhesive was used. Of course it can be felt.

**pete reeves** · 03-07-2009, 05:48 AM

Chris.
Saturday judging is a good idea which has worked well at other meets, it may not be suitable for all meets, but in any case what day the judging takes place would be up to the local chapter.
The particular instance of judging that you are criticising took place on a Sunday. It was past 3pm before the awards and judging sheets were given out.
Under normal circumstances the judging team would be happy to go over the results and make corrections if on reflection they agreed a mistake had been made.

Please tell me what you would have done taking into account the following

It was very late (Gone 3pm) you were under pressure to leave from the people you were travelling with.
The bike you judged was no longer on the judging field.
The rest of the judging team had left.
Friends of the owner of the bike were pressurising you to change the scores and comments made by the team of judges.

I believe the correct thing to do under the above circumstances would be to go over the sheet again when you were not under the above pressures.

Judging rules are quite clear that the judges should not touch the bike and judges are constantly reminded of this. Is touching the bike really the hanging offence that you are making it out to be?
In truth I suspect every judge has touched a bike they are judging at one time or another, people that restore bikes are normally hands on, touching to them is instinctive.

In my previous post I asked you if any body had actually seen the judges run there fingers over the bike? You did not answer this question?

Are you sure the judge�s comment on the transfer was to do with them being able to FEEL the raised height of the decal and not some other reason?
Could the judge�s comments be to do with the quality of the transfer? How it was applied?/How much clear surround there was ?/ How thick was the clear coat?/Was it coverd over with clear coat?

As I stated in my previous post give the judges a break.

It is not constructive to criticise individual cases of judging on this forum, it will only dishearten and prevent people from putting bikes through the judging system, and it will prevent people giving up time to judge bikes.

Pete Reeves 860

**rwm** · 03-08-2009, 05:55 PM

i'd like to purpose a point system that gives all bikes judged 1 bonus point this bonus will be added to your final total but not allowing your score to exceed 98.3/4 points .you will receive your point 3 months after the event only if you don't gripe about the judges you may save all points past 98.3/4 till you accumulate 5 then you get 1 internet post to cry about 1 team of judges.

**Paps** · 03-08-2009, 07:15 PM

LOL ! Though it makes sense.

**Matt McManus** · 03-13-2009, 02:39 PM

Well Chris I guess your shadow did make it to Eustis this year since you know so much about what happened there already. I am the one that judged the bike along with one other judge and three apprentice judges. First of all, if you have not seen the bike in person, you really dont need to be in the discussion. So Chris I guess this counts you out, and everything that you said in your first post is either incorrect or misconstrued. As all of the other judges know you cant remember everything and no one knows everything. You may be able to find out the correct head of a bolt by looking in a book or looking at an original motorcycle but you dont have that luxury on the judging field. The judges that I know along with myself do the best possible job they can to ensure that the bike is judged correctly. If any of you have ever had a bike judged you know it is a tedious process because judges at one place will say one thing and others will say something else. Since there is no source that tells you EXACTLY how your antique bike was built and there being several changes made through almost every year of production, it makes judging subjective and difficult at times. If you are having a bike judged you need to have your old judging sheets in your folder. This makes things a lot easier and quicker for the judges. No one in the judging team touched the tanks and felt the decals raised on the tanks. I dont know where this info came from, but it is false.

That is enough about that. Just bring proof from a respected source if you feel that you received a point deduction that you should not have. Put it in your folder along with your old judging sheets, and it will be corrected at the next judging. That is what I have always done instead of telling my friends about it and letting them cry about it on the internet. If you want to have a 100 point bike you need to take it to a car show and ask a car guy to judge it, because it is probably not going to happen in the AMCA.

I have one more question for Chris. When are you going to bring a bike out to be judged? I would love to see it since you know everything. Maybe there will be a 100 point Harley around. I think it would be fun to judge with Chris also, but it is too bad that he is not allowed to judge anymore. Maybe one day our shadows can get together and pick out all the incorrect parts on a bike. haha

If anyone has any questions about a bike that I have judged or about what all went on after the judging in Eustis, please feel free to call, email or write me.

Thanks.

Matt McManus
11304 James Jack Ln
Charlotte, NC 28277
803-287-8575
mcmanumj@mailbox.sc.edu

**rwm** · 03-13-2009, 05:08 PM

will a 2009 hd floor model score 100pts most likely not.and who cares just have fun and keep them running

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