Copal varnish

[Chris Haynes]

Well, It took me about six seconds to find a source for it on Google.
This is only one source as there were many.

http://www.jamescgroves.com/mediums.htm

[Chris Haynes]

i'm assuming you've done this before ? any varnish will be compatable with new stickers ? no ill affects like lifting ,ect. . will be ok on paint surface, with todays modern gas additives ? ? just checking ,because if clear coat isn't an acceptable finish in your opinion ,i'm assuming you had tried your varnish technique on modern stickers ,finishes and the gas we have today with success .

Actually I have an original container of genuine HD stuff. As with any product you should test your varnish on a decal first.

[pete reeves]

I don’t think having a clear coat over your color paint or transfer is the issue it’s the appearance of this coating If it looks Mile deep as Eric has described it then this is not correct but if it’s a thin coating to give the paint a shiny finish and protect the transfer why shouldn’t this be acceptable Harley used Copal (a clear coating)to coat there color paint and proudly advertised this in sales leaflets.

I also think that the gas tanks were coated with copal before the transfer was applied.

Pete reeves 860

[exeric]

I was looking at my 1916 H-D New Models book for references to finish.

Finish

Beautiful Harley-Davidson gray enamel, artistically striped. The enamel is very carefully put on, each coat being oven baked. After the last coat of enamel has been baked and the striping applied a coat of high grade transparent copal varnish is given as a final finish, this also being baked.

The last coats of enamel are most carefully applied by hand to insure an even distribution over all parts. Each coat of enamel is very carefully hand-rubbed by expert finishers.

The final finsih is the finest it is possible to produce and is unsurpassed by any other motorcycle made.

What I gleen from this is they brushed on coats of enamel and then rubbed out each coat of color to achieve a smooth color finish. I do this with wet and dry sand paper in increasing grades of fine grit reaching a final grade of 1500. In their day they used pumice powder but I don't know how they applied it. They baked their paint but with 2 stage paint you achieve the same result in days. Nobody has access to an oven that could bake fenders and gas tanks and if you don't bake old timey enamel it's going to stay soft for months. Basic enamel is great paint but it takes forever to dry. I use it on machinery like lathes and drill presses for resilience and durability where I don't care about looks.

I assume that after the color coat was baked and rubbed out, they applied the striping and them baked that. With the striping baked they could then apply the decals.

According to Tommo, the decals were held together with a sizing. The decal was applied, and the sizing was gently washed off leaving the letters and or graphics. These decals were ethereally thin, mere wisps of color and image. These decals are still around but I have heard they are virtually impossible to apply due to age. Only good for framing.

I assume the copal varnish was applied after the decal was applied and I am assuming the copal varnish was applied to the whole tank or fender and also baked. To me this is no different than applying a clear coat over the whole tank or fender to seal the striping and a decal. The difference is, decals in 1916 were super thin and reproduction decals today are thick enough to show their height after the clear coat. I think a lot of people put extra coats of clear on so that they can wet sand the clear down to a level surface and simulate the look of an original paint job. Of coarse the pinstiping will be thick and it should look and feel raised above the surface proper. I think this whole process can be hard to control and you can wind up with a mile deep clear finish.

The last observation I would like to make is; I have had a number of Excelsior and Henderson tanks and fenders in original paint and Excelsior did not do an overall copal varnish finish. They only varnished the decals and did a poor job at that. You can plainly see the brush strokes after 80 and 90 years of yellowing varnish. H-D seemed to do a better job on their paint work.

[schmittm]

2nd Generation paint technology

It appears that paint formulas and, I'm sure, painting methods themselves changed about 1933 with the introduction of the new "quick drying enamels". The paints are advertised as "air dry" and first mentioned in the Ausust 1933 Enthusiast and again in the 1934 Accessory Catalog. It also appears that Copal was no longer available and, I'm guessing here, no longer used at the factory. The Copal was replaced by part #11620-X; Clear Varnish which was also one of the new quick drying formulas. It mentions that the new paint was used to paint all the new 1934 models.

The 1934 transfers are referred to as "Decalcomania" which are water transfers. Replacements were sold with some sort of cement for applying them, part #11640-X in 2oz cans. Anyone know for sure what the stuff was? It might have been the old Copal, if anyone has a copy of the installation instructions for the replacement transfers it would probably shed some light on what it was and how it was used.

I tried to scan the page from my '34 Accessory Catalog but it isn't real good, sorry. You get what you pay for, like all my other contributions; no charge!

mike

[Chris Haynes]

Kevin,
You will be receiving a package in the mail. Treat it carefully as it is NOS. I am sure the contents will open your eyes to what I have been unsucessfully trying to tell you. I will include return postage for its return after you have inspected it.

[kval]

copal varnish

Chris
I will treat it with kid gloves, and return to you ASAP

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=schmittm;70278]It appears that paint formulas and, I'm sure, painting methods themselves changed about 1933 with the introduction of the new "quick drying enamels". The paints are advertised as "air dry" and first mentioned in the Ausust 1933 Enthusiast and again in the 1934 Accessory Catalog. It also appears that Copal was no longer available and, I'm guessing here, no longer used at the factory. The Copal was replaced by part #11620-X; Clear Varnish which was also one of the new quick drying formulas. It mentions that the new paint was used to paint all the new 1934 models.

The 1934 transfers are referred to as "Decalcomania" which are water transfers. Replacements were sold with some sort of cement for applying them, part #11640-X in 2oz cans. Anyone know for sure what the stuff was? It might have been the old Copal, if anyone has a copy of the installation instructions for the replacement transfers it would probably shed some light on what it was and how it was used.

Decalcomania was the name of the company producing the transfers. I have some NOS decals, somewhere, that are clearly marked with the decalcomania trademark on the reverse.

Many decals are reproduced by different people. It would be a good idea to buy an extra pair and test the compatibility of whatever you choose to protect them with.

[bmh]

I can't say if this is the case with Copal varnish or not but there are many companies that have been in buissiness a long time and are still marketing products under names that are decades old. Unfortunatley the product in the can due to ever more strict regulation for VOC's and such bare absolutly nothing in common with the original product. For example the Spar varnish we used to get at work 25 years ago was a completely different compound then what we get today. Sadly this is the case with many finishing products today. While you haven't been able to buy Laquer paint here in PA for close to a decade I can still get it at work. It doesn't cure near as hard as the stuff we used to get, as a matter of fact it stays kinda soft and as such we now tend to avoid it.

[kval]

copal varnish

Kevin,
You will be receiving a package in the mail. Treat it carefully as it is NOS. I am sure the contents will open your eyes to what I have been unsucessfully trying to tell you. I will include return postage for its return after you have inspected it.

Chris
I always thought you were a little touched! you really sent that via US mail.
your point is well taken, but remember, I inherited these rules. we are trying to improve on them as we go. the main reason for allowing non-original paint etc. was because people claimed that laquer and cad were not available everywhere in the country. supposedly your state banned laquer paint and Harley and Indian used it on some years. this rule started in 1992 and that makes it VERY HARD to change. BUT we can get tougher on judging them. we had something called "over-restored" but nobody wants to use that, so we just have to deduct for paint that is to shiney and stainless spokes that are not glass beaded. the quality of bikes being judged keeps going up and therefore we have gotten more critial on the judging. Most of the members approve of what we have accomplished since takeing over, but some will never be happy unless they get a trophy to raise the price of their bike when they sell it(which is the only reason they have it judged). with that said, I have seen people use two stage paint and make it look just like the original finish on Indian motorcycles, as you know I do not know much about that "other brand", but all you guys are forcing me to learn and I have even been seen riding them(don't tell anyone)
Robin and I had a conversation with you a few years ago, and I was really hoping for a change, so we could get back to where we were before.
if you get a chance call me after 9:00PM eastern time so we can talk

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=kval;70417]Chris
Ithe main reason for allowing non-original paint etc. was because people claimed that laquer and cad were not available everywhere in the country. /QUOTE]

If guys would look in a copy of "Business To Business" Yellow pages they could probably find shops that do Cadmium plating. Worse case scenario is they might have to UPS their parts to a plater. But are the spokes the only part on the bike that is cadmium plated. Hardly. So ( I know this is going way out there) would Stainless Steel Starter pedal pieces, clutch cover and primary cover screws, seat post, steering damper washers and plates, circuit breaker covers, shifter rods and clevis, clutch release lever, ETC. ETC. ETC be allowed?
My point is they find a way to get all the other Cadmium plated parts done correctly. Why is it a problem to get the spokes done at the same time?
I live in California. Home of the strongest EPA and pollution laws in the country. I have no problem finding single stage paint. Antique Cycle Supply (http://antiquecyclesupply.com/paint.htm ) will supply you 1904-1977 single stage Harley-Davidson colors. As you say, you inherited this problem from your predecessors who listened to the complaints that I can't find this or that. The fact is Cadmium Plating and Single Stage Paint is available. They were just too lazy to look for it. What is the big deal about having to use UPS or the mail to order a part (Paint is a part) or send parts out to be plated?

[kval]

copal varnish

Chris
you really need to sit back and take a deep breath!
you know that spokes are the only thing ever allowed. at first they had to be glass beaded or lose 1/4 point per wheel, then that was dropped. BUT we brought that back last year, so now you lose 1/4 point per wheel if you are to lazy to do it right. as I stated before, we inherited these rules and have been working on refining them. I think we have done a pretty good job of it so far, as the complaints are few and far between. the paint thing is a whole other thing, so for now all we can do is hit them with a deduction, some of the problem seems to be that people are sending out parts to be painted and the painter(who is doing the chopper thing) only knows two stage paint and claims that is the only way they can do it.
I personally think that spending thousands of hard earned dollars for a super shiney paint job is stupid. when for about $100.00 you can buy the single stage paint and do it yourself.

[Chris Haynes]

Kevin,
There is nothing wrong with my breathing.
At least now, maybe, you can understand what I have been saying about the paint and transfers. There was nothing over the decals in the mid '30's. Earlier tanks had varnish over the decals. There was no clear coat.
As you say it is easier and cheaper that way. Points should be deducted for machines with clear coat on them. Enough points to keep them from receiving a Senior award.

[flthead]

give it a rest already

[kval]

copal varnish

flthead
you are right, so I am closing this thread as it is not going anywhere