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My 101 Scout Cannonball Build

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  • #16
    I agree, the "total the components" is not valid if significant weight changes have been made.
    What % factor would I use in a 101? I would shamelessly copy whatever some known expert has used successfully. Anything else could be an expensive experiment.
    The Linkert Book

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    • #17
      You may find Jim Moshers site performanceindian.com interesting.Although his speed records are on newer scout power the info in the tech talk lower ends section would apply to a 101 also I beleive.
      Tom

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      • #18
        Originally posted by d_lasher View Post
        Thanks, that was one of my questions and it does make sense. I do have more questions about balancing. I feel like the old trick of balancing the flywheel with both rods and one piston isn't right when my pistons are aluminum and weigh a lot less now then the old factory pistons. So I'm thinking, and I almost hate to bring it up, of weighing everything and just using a balance factor of 68%. I searched online and somewhere, someone said 101 scouts had a factory balance of 68%.

        My thoughts are I'm looking for a slow, reliable ride and the higher factor would give a better general purpose ride. The last thing I want is a drag racer. Does this make sense? If I use these numbers I end up using the two rods, one piston and an extra 30 grams.

        Fine print, by piston I do mean piston, rings, clips and pin.

        When I hang this up on the balance beam I'm off by a lot. I figure I'd have to drill 7 to 8 holes? Does that seem right?
        Wow Dana!

        68% is the first time I ever heard a factor for 101s, just like most other machines.
        Sounds good to me because just about anything works (as long everything else is in order).

        It would be great to back calculate the real thing, for History's sake,..

        So I suggest estimating what it came with if you can, and determining what you've got as is, before eating metal.
        (Sometimes its better to stuff'n'plug, and stuff.)

        Can you weigh your rod tops?

        ....Cotten
        Attached Files
        Last edited by T. Cotten; 06-11-2019, 11:51 AM.
        AMCA #776
        Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

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        • #19
          I suspect that some "unsuccessful" (some vibration remains) balance jobs are not due to a bad choice of factor, but of:
          1. wheels are not true
          2. rod(s) are bent
          3. unreasonably high cruising RPM
          4. balance factor not applied equally as to metal removed and position (as my previous post), this includes (very slightly) holes not drilled to the same depth.

          Calculations based on weight are, IMHO, deconstruction of what has already worked. An illustration: from front piston position 45° BTDC to TDC and 45° BBDC to BDC, the front and rear pistons are moving in opposite directions, and their exact vectors are affected by rod ratio. Neither of these are included in any balance formula.Flywheel balance X-section-2.JPG
          Last edited by kitabel; 06-11-2019, 07:00 PM.
          The Linkert Book

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          • #20
            Originally posted by kitabel View Post
            I suspect that some "unsuccessful" (some vibration remains) balance jobs are not due to a bad choice of factor, but of:
            1. wheels are not true
            2. rod(s) are bent
            3. unreasonably high cruising RPM
            4. balance factor not applied equally as to metal removed and position (as my previous post), this includes (very slightly) holes not drilled to the same depth.

            Calculations based on weight are, IMHO, deconstruction of what has already worked. An illustration: from front piston position 45° BTDC to TDC and 45° BBDC to BDC, the front and rear pistons are moving in opposite directions, and their exact vectors are affected by rod ratio. Neither of these are included in any balance formula.
            Absolutely, Kitabel!

            Kinda meant that with 'everything else in order'..

            And yes, yes,.. motor 'balancing' is only a practical technique, not really science.

            ....Cotten
            PS: But the #4 'position' thing confuses me: How then did the MOCO successfully run huge left flywheels?


            And #3,.. For some reason my Pans always preferred to scream. (Loved Eisenhower's Interstates.)
            It was like an aircraft 'humm' at seventy with 22-tooth motor and tranny sprockets and a hack.

            PPS: I almost forgot!
            There are experts who proclaim that the female rod 'top' should be shaved to what they feel is equal to the male, in spite of what you describe: masses moving in "opposite" directions.
            Good thing these things are forgiving...
            Last edited by T. Cotten; 06-11-2019, 02:39 PM.
            AMCA #776
            Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

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            • #21
              >> 68% is the first time I ever heard a factor for 101s, just like most other machines.
              >> Sounds good to me because just about anything works (as long everything else is in order).

              It’s the only number I was able to find. I found it on another board, about ten years old. He responded later and said the bike ran great. The other reason I thought I’d use 68 is if I don’t like it. I can take the motor apart and drill more holes to lower it. If I start to small I’d have to add weight back in.

              >> So I suggest estimating what it came with if you can, and determining what you've got as is, before eating metal.
              I’m on the road right now, when I get back I will. I’m not sure what that’s going to tell me. The pistons I pulled out were aluminum and the rods looked original. And unfortunately the bike was a basket case when I got it and the owner sadly was long gone. So I don’t know how it was used or how it ran. I’ll look harder when I get home.

              >>
              Can you weigh your rod tops?

              I cheated, the rods came with a spec sheet, weights, lengths, bores. I have the weights but they’re at home.

              >> Kitabel..
              I’ll take my time a do everything you suggested. I can use the depth gauge to verify the depth of the drills. And an angle wheel to put the holes in the same spot on both wheels. And as always, measure, measure, and measure some more.

              Cotten, I agree there’s no way I’m taking metal off of the connecting rods.

              At the end of the day, even though it’s just a number I’d like to at least try for better then just throw it all together and hope for the best.

              Thanks,
              Dana
              Dana
              web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
              Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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              • #22
                If you trust the spec sheet, Dana,

                Then you can determine the resulting factor of your new assembly by hanging the wheels and bare rods upon your beams, and adding weights to the rod tops until it achieves balance.

                The added weight plus the rod tops then divided by the actual reciprocating weight gives you the existing factor.

                Then decide if you want to change it; Please remember that the noble grace of a single-throw V twin is that it will run quite smooth over a wide range of factors. Motor balancing is for the motor's benefit, not the rider.

                ....Cotten
                AMCA #776
                Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                Comment


                • #23
                  On the never ending hunt for parts, I got to hit up the Dixon swap meet yesterday on my way home. A few posts ago I mentioned my magneto was missing a few critical pieces, like the magnet and coil. I was able to score not one, but two splitdorf ns2’s! They both look to be in good restorable shape.

                  85589C68-4D6A-428D-AD28-A73833A7A971.jpg

                  I’m hoping I can make two good running magnetos and use one as a spare for the cannonball.
                  Dana
                  web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
                  Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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                  • #24
                    It’s been awhile but I’m back to the flywheels. This may be a stupid question but what keeps the flywheel crankshaft thrust washers on? I’ve staked them to the flywheel and the pins keep the thrust washers from spinning, but how do they stay flat against the flywheel? Mine are so lose they just fall off if I hold the flywheel down.

                    B2DDE06F-DEF9-48EE-A6AE-021D6E7E22BA.jpg

                    Thanks for any help
                    Dana
                    web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
                    Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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                    • #25
                      Vaseline, Dana!

                      ....Cotten
                      Attached Files
                      AMCA #776
                      Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        That made me laugh, my dad’s answer to everything was ‘Vaseline’.

                        Thanks for bringing back the memories.
                        Dana
                        web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
                        Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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                        • #27
                          It's always something. I trued the wheel assembly up in my lathe. It went easier then I thought it would. Using the press to push down on both wheels at once to square the two wheels up. My first measurements were in the 3 thousands mark. A lot of banging and squeezing later and I'm down to less then 0.001 run out on both the pinion and drive shafts! The whole process took about two hours. The first time!

                          After I was all done and just about to 'Bag and Tag' them I thought I should test the oil feed passages. I was pretty careful about lining up the crankshaft to match but better safe then sorry. Sure enough the passage was blocked somewhere. I couldn't blow through the oil feed hole.

                          A little bit of searching found the problem. Both my new crankshaft, old crankshaft and the old flywheel had the oil feed hole drilled 3/8" from the inside face of the flywheel. But my new flywheels had the oil feed hole drilled 3/8" from the outside face. It was off by about 1/4".
                          IMG_1314.jpg

                          Other then returning the flywheel that I had already balanced and lapped true the only fix I could see was to move one the holes. The crankshaft is hardened steel and I really didn't think drilling into that was an option. So I put the flywheel on the mill and made a small 1/4" slot to connect the two holes. I was concerned modifying the taper was going to screw up the truing process but it all seemed to work out.

                          Truing was easier the second time, almost like they knew where to be. Or, I knew how hard to hit them to get them to move.

                          Moral of the story, trust no one and always check parts as they arrive to make sure they fit and are correct. I could have easily returned the flywheels before I modified them.

                          WTR : 62
                          Dana
                          web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
                          Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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                          • #28
                            If you have good Indian wheels that are not worn you dont need anything.The washer should fit tight almost snapping into the recess.
                            If you washers fall out of the recess with new wheels the recess is to big.If they still fall out after staking you need bigger thrust washers or new wheels.
                            The usual fix is carefull shrinkage of the recess with a dull center punch,and I usually add a smear of red loctite to the back side of the washer.
                            BTW I thought I remember Tom Cotten mentioning a method of fitting harley washers to Indian wheels with bubuggered pins and recesses but forget the details.
                            Tom

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                            • #29
                              [QUOTE=d_lasher;181945...Truing was easier the second time, almost like they knew where to be. Or, I knew how hard to hit them to get them to move.....[/QUOTE] That's called "memory", Dana!

                              Works for chassis frames, too, except for the hitting part.

                              Using my babbit hammer on flywheels was always ONLY out of frustration.
                              Then I learned to lap tapers first: http://virtualindian.org/10techfly.htm

                              Your results may vary...

                              ....Cotten
                              Last edited by T. Cotten; 07-02-2019, 01:17 PM.
                              AMCA #776
                              Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I never really felt great about the thrust washers in the flywheels and I saw Tom's answer above after I had already torqued and locked them. It always seems it take me three times to get something right. So I decided to redo the flywheels for a the third time. I used a center punch to make four small indents around the thrust washer. It's tighter now and they don't fall out if I hold them upside down and shake. Let's hope three times the charm.

                                The next job is grinding and lapping the valves and seats. Does anyone have an opinion on grinding the seats? Should I go for a three angle seat and have a narrower valve seat, or go for straight 35 degree angle and use the full seat?
                                Dana
                                web : https://thecastlehillgarage.com/
                                Instagram : thecastlehillgarage

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