control connection block and carburetor control rod question

[Steve Swan]

Comparing the H and DLX models in terms of overall running and performance, what if any differences would the rider rider be able to notice?

[Tommo]

In my opinion not a lot until you get right to the top end of the scale and then the De Luxe has the edge.
Really though how many of us ride these old girls flat out any more.

[Steve Swan]

I sure won't ride mine like they did 90 years ago. With paved roads, a heated garage, and my loving to keep the old fellow in top fettle, he has a very privileged life. Just reward for surviving 90 years.

[Steve Slocombe]

Harley always gives the 1 1/4" carbs and many components a -24 part number, so maybe the DLX came out in 1924, possibly for the 1925 model year, or as a late change in the 1924 model year.

[T. Cotten]

Steve and All!

Modern sources such as Indianmotorbikes.com (link is dead) cite DLX12 for the '15-'24 61"s, DLX20 for '21-'24 74"s, and pushes earlier DLX production back to '12 for Excelsior. (Indian is listed to adopt them one year after H-D.)
It also lists the HX160 for 1915-24 61", and HX181 for 1921-25 74".

HX models are listed to cease about '25, with only the Indian Scout (which also was provided with DLXs) survived for '26, perhaps '27.

The starting instructions that Tommo posted refers to the lowspeed needle lift lever that appeared with the Type B DLX; Earlier Type As (and GXs) instead had lowspeed needles that could be pulled out in their knobs to rest on a detente (And there were at least two kinds of those, not counting different lengths.)

One might imagine that since HXs coexisted with DLXs for perhaps more than a decade, there must have been some reluctance for consumers to adopt the newfangled DeLuXe.

....Cotten

[Tommo]

When using HD parts books it is essential you use every year to determine when different parts were introduced.
As I said previously the De Luxe does not appear in the 1920 to 1924 edition but does appear in the 1921 to 1925 edition.
Release date for the 1921 to 25 edition is stated on the cover as "Issued September 1st, 1924"
As this book was produced in 1924 to cover the new 1925 models it's reasonable to assume that the factory would use some -24 part numbers to cover parts being introduced for the new model year.
If we look at the carburettor section in the 1921 to 1925 Spare Parts Manual we see the following;

MK88A - Schebler De Luxe 1"3/8 - 1921 to 1923 74"motors, 1924 and 1925
LK744 - Schebler De Luxe 1"1/8 - 1917 to 1923 61" motors

From this you can see that the Motor Company documented that the LK744 could be retro fitted to bikes as far back as 1917 so my question is, does this make a De Luxe a correct fitment on a 17?
To answer my own question, No it doesn't, but it does provide us with an excellent example of how careful you have to be when using parts manuals and their so called dash year suffix's to determine when exactly a part was introduced.
Attached is photos of what Frank Jones of Jones Brothers the HD Importers of the time called his bible. This is a bound collection of every HD issued Parts Manual from 1915 to 1932.
I am lucky enough to own this "Bible" and it is from this I have gleaned a lot of my knowledge.
What I'm really trying to say is that to make hard and fast statements as to what is right or wrong is very difficult but if you use the resources available you can come to some very accurate assumptions.
I hope this is not boring everybody but at the moment I'm not able to walk too well so sitting here annoying you guys is about all I can do.
Very frustrating as I'd much rather be out in my workshop.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks, Tommo!

But I must ask about the MK88A and LK744,..
Since model body sizes were called a nominal 1" Model (which were actually 1 3/16" for a DLX), or a 1 1/4" Model (actually 1 3/8" diameter for a DLX), are you sure those weren't supposed to be HX Models with 1 1/8" and 1 3/8" bores?

Or is the 1 1/8" a misprint?

I'm so easily confused,

....Cotten

[Tommo]

Here's the page concerned

[T. Cotten]

Thanks Tommo!

We know now it will never make sense.

....Cotten
PS: Maybe:
0523 IK744 is a 1" Model HX160 (and should have been labeled 1 1/8", to be congruent with the other actual bore sizes...) ;
0524 JK880A is a 1 1/4" Model HX181;
0524A MK88A is a 1 1/4" Model DLX20;
0524B LK744 is a 1" Model DLX12.

Maybe.


Gasp!
I just realized the DLXs cost THREE DOLLARS MORE!

[Steve Swan]

i'd like to thank you all for your fantastic conversations making this thread a brilliant one! Tommo, whenever i feel i have access to as many original resources possible, then i try to draw a conclusion that i don't write in stone because i have been proven wrong enough times to know different! what i am trying to say, is a i really respect the approach you take in basing your assumptions on as much evidence as you can find. many thanks for your time and effort contributing to this thread. i appreciate your "annoying" manner and trust your walking improves. practicing as a registered nurse the past 43 years, i have to say things like that without getting to nosey.

[Tommo]

On the list waiting for a new hip.
Things grate away inside there if I move too vigorously.
Tends to hurt a bit.

[Steve Swan]

Is the waiting list how your health care delivery system works or is it something else?

[Tommo]

You got it.
I can pay 20 to 25k and go private and it may get me in 3 to 4 weeks sooner.
For 25k I think I can wait 3 to 4 weeks and get it done by the same surgeon at no cost to me what-so-ever.

[Steve Slocombe]

I'm with Tommo in that Harley relentlessly airbrushed history by back dating part numbers in later parts books. Often they say 'fits 1924-40' or some such, but sometimes they don't. The Scheblers were nearly removed from the historical record by the 1930s policy of replacing them with Linkerts. If you had a 1925 JD and went into your Harley dealer in 1940 for a new carb, you'd probably be given an M41 as the only choice for replacement. Likewise the 1925-30 Mesinger 3 half pan seat, followed by the 1931-33 Mesinger, followed by the 1934-39 full pan seat with no holes in the base, followed by the 1940 and up full pan seat with drain holes which was made almost to the present day. Your Harley dealer would supply a replacement seat for your 1925 JD way different from that originally fitted, but pulled off the shelf with a -25 part number.

[bobbyt]

Schebler introduced the De Luxe carb in the late spring of 1922. There's an announcement in the May Motorcycle Illustrated. It's interesting that the 1 1/4" was available first; the 1" a few weeks later.

Bob Turek