control connection block and carburetor control rod question

[Tommo]

As a further complication to what carb is correct on which motorcycle study this Schebler list that was printed in late 28 or early 1929.
This matches manufacturers parts numbers to Schebler carb numbers and a DLX 58 is not even mentioned.
I've probably opened a horrible can of worms here but there's no use sitting on any information that will help to unravel the puzzle

[Steve Swan]

Tommo, thank you very much for your replies. From what little i know, it seems the 29JD is a bit of a mystery when it comes to finding any written information about carb type fitted from factory. Your first hand observations on original unmolested 29's is great to know and certainly very strongly supports DLX 58's were fitted on 29JD models from the factory.

What i find interesting is you have seen DLX 58's on 27JD models. The literature i have seen says DLX 38's were fitted to '27 models.

Out of curiosity, was the DLX a special order carb or an option? did H carbs come standard or on what machines or specific applications were H carbs fitted? The reason i am asking, studying the pictures of my Dad's 27, his bike clearly has an H type carb. He bought the bike new with a sidecar. I don't know if the engine was a sidecar spec engine or if the sidecar was added to a non-sidecar spec engine. From what little i know, it seems the DLX was a better designed carb than the H carb?

attached is a picture of my Dad's with his '27, you can see fairly clearly the H carb on his bike.

Dad asleep on the road.jpgrotc lh.jpg

Also, this is off subject, but the boss the vin is stamped on, is this boss and vins painted over or is it bare aluminum? It "appears" in all the pictures i have seen, the boss is not painted? in the picture where my dad is standing in front of is bike, it's hard to tell if it's a reflection, but the vin boss "appears" bare aluminum....

[Steve Slocombe]

I would say Tommo's list is contemporary with the 1928 Schebler overhaul manual, so is still no help for 1929/30. For a little more info, the 1930-40 Harley parts book shows five carburettor body part numbers. One, 1226-33A, is the 1" Linkert 1933 and up and another 1226-33 is the 1 1/4" Linkert 1933 models and up, which we know relatively well. 1226-30 is then described as 1930-38 45" twins and commercial, which must be a 1" unit. We are then left with two 1 1/4" bodies, 1226-28 being 1928 to first 1930, and 1226-30A described as die cast, later 1930-33 74" twins, DLD and RLD. I'm thinking 1226-28 being the brass Scheblers in the DLX 45-72 range, while 1226-30A is the pot metal Schebler DLX 80-92. So we know that brass Scheblers were used on 'first 1930' VLs. 30V8795C, a very original UK bike, had a DLX 80 fitted, so 'first 1930' must have finished before that. Unfortunately we don't know which number brass Scheblers were used on first 1930 VLs, but I'd guess DLX 58, 66 and 72 could be in there.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks for another piece o' the puzzle, Tommo!

Confusing as it is...

It seems to me like another mystery as to why the H Model was used contemporarily with the superior DLX.
I have had about as many HX181s across my benches as DLX38s, and they are evil.

....Cotten

[Tommo]

Steve
If you want to discuss VL carbs lets start a new thread.
Threads on here get very confusing when the subject strays away from the original question.

[Tommo]

Tom,
I have to take you to task over your comment about Model H carbs.
To say they are "evil" is so far from being correct that it isn't funny.
A well overhauled and set up Model H will run just as good as any DLX.
I don't think it does anyone any good by introducing myths about things that later on get taken as facts.
Tom Cotton says a Model H Schebler is evil and he is a carb expert so it must be right.
I would be interested to know what you consider "evil" in regard to this model of carb because in my experience so long as you understand exactly how they work, they are a very good carburettor.

[Rubone]

Tommo, just keep in mind the definition of "Expert", an Ex is a has been , and a spert (sic) is a drip under pressure....

[T. Cotten]

I'm only a student of these calamities, Tommo!

Most that cross my benches are walking dead.
Somehow they allowed themselves to be tortured souls long past their natural life, and then it is my task to resurrect fossils with graveyard scraps, or worse yet, some of the modern frankenhardware off of ebay.

What day is today, anyway?

....Cotten
PS: Folks, I've got eight of these things staring at me, and they keep me up at night; The nightmare is that I have to make a living at this.

[exeric]

Spin it any way you want, Tom.

[Tommo]

Tom I do understand.
I'm looking at 9 at present but the reality is that there is not longer an infinitive supply of these things and carbs we would have once thrown under the bench because we had a better one in stock, we now have to pull out and fix.
Yes it's a pain but if you have a real passion for this hobby you will repair anything.
For others that are interested there are eight HX181's and one HX180 in the photo.
Two are finished, three bodies have been cleaned awaiting overhaul and the other four are as received and awaiting overhaul.
Of the cleaned ones the one on the extreme right is a early HX181 on the HX149 casting.
These early 181's have the smaller dia float bowl. This is not the first one of these I've seen and yes it's stamped HX181
All the other HX181's in the photo are on HX165 castings.
For those looking for it you will find the casting number on the stem that the float bowl covers.
Now I've strayed off subject and deserve a clip round the ear for doing exactly what I criticized Steve for doing.
Sorry Guys and Gals.

[Steve Swan]

I think we're having a wonderful conversation and i am really grateful for the knowledge and expertise you guys are all sharing. If someone wants to start a VL carb thread, go for it ! i'm a later model JD guy, so thanks again for the time you're giving to my questions!

[T. Cotten]

Tommo!

I also have encountered HX181s with both sizes of bowls. The tiny bowls with 3/4" bowlstem holes are just another enigma to me.

Nearly all of my requests are to "conserve", and not "restore" hardware, so often I am compelled to use what is supplied, especially when there was a family provenance. I haven't any 181s on the bench currently, and all of my photo library shows complete assemblies, covering the bowlstem.

We can only be certain that production varied widely, and posterity wasn't often kind.

....Cotten

[Tommo]

As to when Model H's stopped being fitted and De Luxe's took over can be narrowed down quite a bit.
The evidence is out there for most or all to see if you go looking for it.
The 1921 to 1925 HD Parts Directory, released 1st September 1924, has the first mention of the De Luxe carb so it is reasonable to assume that 1925 was the first year that the Motor Company offered the De Luxe carb as an option.
If we go to the Supplement for the 1929 Riders Handbook we will find on the bottom of page 9 the attachment I've posted here.
If you read it you will see that 1926 and earlier (I deduce 1925 and 1926) Harley used the early style De Luxe carbs and 1927 and later used the later style carb with the cam on the end of the choke shaft.
The 1921 Schebler Manual has no mention of De Luxe carbs but they are in the 1925 Schebler Manual.
From this we can deduce that they appeared on the market somewhere between 1922 and 1925 and my money is on 1925 as the year HD first offered them.
The 1928 model release details in the Enthusiast show the late style De Luxe carb as standard fitment.
There's some of the evidence that's out there so you make up your own mind as to what and when.

[Steve Swan]

As to when Model H's stopped being fitted and De Luxe's took over can be narrowed down quite a bit.
The evidence is out there for most or all to see if you go looking for it.
The 1921 to 1925 HD Parts Directory, released 1st September 1924, has the first mention of the De Luxe carb so it is reasonable to assume that 1925 was the first year that the Motor Company offered the De Luxe carb as an option.
If we go to the Supplement for the 1929 Riders Handbook we will find on the bottom of page 9 the attachment I've posted here.
If you read it you will see that 1926 and earlier (I deduce 1925 and 1926) Harley used the early style De Luxe carbs and 1927 and later used the later style carb with the cam on the end of the choke shaft.
The 1921 Schebler Manual has no mention of De Luxe carbs but they are in the 1925 Schebler Manual.
From this we can deduce that they appeared on the market somewhere between 1922 and 1925 and my money is on 1925 as the year HD first offered them.
The 1928 model release details in the Enthusiast show the late style De Luxe carb as standard fitment.
There's some of the evidence that's out there so you make up your own mind as to what and when.

Tommo, thank you for your great reply.

However, i may not have been clear in my question. I was wondering if the DeLuxe Schebler was an option in 1927? and the H model was maybe standard, considering the pictures of my Dad's bike appears to have an H type on it. As i am sure you know, the '27 Rider's Handbook gives tuning instructions for the H and DLX models.

[Tommo]

My guess is that it was still optional in 1927.
HX standard fitment and De Luxe as an option.
The strange thing is that the order sheets, as printed in "The Legend Begins", do not give you any carb options during the period we're talking about.
Even the Accessory Catalogues give you no clue.
Right up to the last one covering 1929 they list both H series and DLX series carbs but do not say which one is the original fitment carb.
In my humble opinion I think that from 1925 on you would be really sticking your neck out if you started being pedantic about what carb should be fitted as the availability of options at time make it very difficult