internal rear brake setup

[Steve Swan]

i'm hoping anyone with experience using the internal rear brake accessory for the J/JD models can share if this internal setup adds any effectiveness to the braking power of the external band setup ?

i really want to keep my JD original and so while a front brake would be really nice i'd also like to consider the option of the possibility of using the internal setup if it actually improves braking power.

i don't know anything about the internal setup, other than it was an option, i am assuming for commercial use.... ? was the internal brake a USA feature ? or overseas only ?

Does anyone have pictures of the setup you could post ?

[exeric]

My 1916J has the standard internal brake, and the import band brake. My experience with external band brakes is not favorable, unfortunately, on many '20s vintage bikes, that's all you had. On my '16, the band brake is barely a hill holder, and in no way a suitable primary brake. I know H-D, Indian, and Brand X improved the band brakes they used so they are better than earlier examples; but, everyone went to more efficient internal, expanding brakes by the 1930s. I was not aware that H-D offered an internal brake option in 1927, but I'm sure they did because it was required on export models. I would like to see a picture of the internal expanding brake assembly. I would assume a backing plate would be needed as there has to be a pivot post, and a brake cam to actuate the brake shoes (if it uses shoes). My '16 Harley, and '16 Excelsior use a, sort of, internal brake band but there is still a pivot, and cam. On all of my bikes that are equipped with both brakes; the internal brake works the best. . . Phew, that just kind of rambles on, sorry

[Steve Swan]

My 1916J has the standard internal brake, and the import band brake. My experience with external band brakes is not favorable, unfortunately, on many '20s vintage bikes, that's all you had. On my '16, the band brake is barely a hill holder, and in no way a suitable primary brake. I know H-D, Indian, and Brand X improved the band brakes they used so they are better than earlier examples; but, everyone went to more efficient internal, expanding brakes by the 1930s. I was not aware that H-D offered an internal brake option in 1927, but I'm sure they did because it was required on export models. I would like to see a picture of the internal expanding brake assembly. I would assume a baking plate would be needed as there has to be a pivot post, and a brake cam to actuate the brake shoes (if it uses shoes). My '16 Harley, and '16 Excelsior use a, sort of, internal brake band but there is still a pivot, and cam. On all of my bikes that are equipped with both brakes; the internal brake works the best. . . Phew, that just kind of rambles on, sorry

Thanks Eric for your reply. "JD Brad" mentioned the internal set up and his mention jogged my memory of having heard conversation or perhaps having seen on on ebay. i cannot remember.

agreed, any use of the rear brake MUST be pre-meditated. braking cannot be considered a matter of fact that one can stop in time or any time wants to without before thinking and realizing one needs to brake when one wants to brake.

i guess the other question i have is this: has anyone used these type of repro brake linings ? Jiri Filipek out of Czechoslovakia sells them. i wonder if they stop any better. i bought a set of them, but have not tried them because i wanted to experience the original setup with the fiber/wire lining is bought from Johnny Sells.

enclosed is a picture of the brake bands taken from Jiri's site. his lining is a sort of tan and appear riveted on. the set i have which i seem to remember buying from him have a black bonded lining. i will take a picture of the ones i have. may be worth a try to install them, but first i would like to hear anyone's experience with these reproduction bands.h146-500x500.jpg

[Tommo]

My 27 and chair has the internal/external rear brake set up and at road speeds will lock the rear wheel with either if you jump on them hard enough.
Quite a few English based countries required motorcycles to have two brakes so until the American motorcycle industry started fitting a front wheel brake the internal/external system is how they complied with some export requirements.
Set up properly they work just fine.
I still use nos HD linings but am getting very low on stocks so have no surplus.
Hard linings don't work, you need a fairly soft lining which does wear out pretty quickly but if you want a good brake that is the down side you have to put up with.
I'll photograph the setup on my 27 a.s.a.p. but please bear with me as I'm housebound at the moment with poor health.

[Steve Swan]

My 27 and chair has the internal/external rear brake set up and at road speeds will lock the rear wheel with either if you jump on them hard enough.
Quite a few English based countries required motorcycles to have two brakes so until the American motorcycle industry started fitting a front wheel brake the internal/external system is how they complied with some export requirements.
Set up properly they work just fine.
I still use nos HD linings but am getting very low on stocks so have no surplus.
Hard linings don't work, you need a fairly soft lining which does wear out pretty quickly but if you want a good brake that is the down side you have to put up with.
I'll photograph the setup on my 27 a.s.a.p. but please bear with me as I'm housebound at the moment with poor health.

Tommo, thank you so very much for your fine reply. i will appreciate pictures when you feel better. Trust all is well and again, thank you. from your description, it sounds like an external rear brake is what wold work best since i want to keep my bike as original as i can.

i wonder how difficult the rear brake set up is to find.

[MMasa]

Steve
I have some of those setups but it's really just a reserve brake in the event that the main brakes fail. It has an extra pedal that faces rearward on the right footboard. It's a heel brake pedal that you actuate with the back of your foot. You would not be able to apply both at the same time unless your foot was about 18" long.
Eric is correct that the backing plate is different because of the added pivot and actuation points. The internal band assembly is the same as used on all 1915-1922 style brakes with the round backing plate. The heel brake pedal is the hardest part to find. I have some because many of my JD parts came from overseas where as Tommo stated, a secondary brake was mandated.
Mark Masa

[Tommo]

Mark and Steve,
You set up the brake so that the internal one is almost rubbing and the external is a bit on the loose side.
You brake initially using the internal brake and as the heat from braking grows the steel brake drum and the internal brake starts to fail you move to using the external brake that is now more efficient due to the expansion of the drum.
Don't adjust the external band up too tight as in the worst cases the said drum expansion can lock up the rear wheel.
Marks right in saying the rear pedal is hard to find but just as hard to find is the rear footboard mounting that the brake pedal revolves on.

[Steve Swan]

Tommo wrote, "My 27 and chair has the internal/external rear brake set up and at road speeds will lock the rear wheel with either if you jump on them hard enough."

hmmm......... this has me thinking maybe i need to step on the brake pedal harder........? maybe i am stepping on the JD pedal as i am accustomed to stepping on the pedal of a more modern drum brake........

or i wonder if i have my brake pedal set up correctly.........

the rear brake bracket and bands were parts that came with my bike when i bought it. i relined the bands with the like (as i understand them to be) original lining from Johnny Sells.

it seems the rear portion of the top band drags a fair amount on the drum and front portion of the bottom band drags a fair amount on the drum. i have my brake pedal play set up with as much play as i can to minimize the lining dragging on the drum while at the same time still feel like i am not going to bottom the pedal when i step on the brake.

enclosed are a couple pics taken during my 1st build process. i will appreciate your thoughts or anything you see that may be amiss. in particular if there are any set up tips i may have overlooked out of ignorance.

fwiw, you will note the red color of the edge of the drum. this is from heat.

[Robert Luland]

In the words of Mark Masa a few years ago. "Two things that don't work, don't make one that does."

[Steve Swan]

In the words of Mark Masa a few years ago. "Two things that don't work, don't make one that does."

i would agree Bob !

i am leaning towards coming up with a front brake setup. i need to give it some study and thought, though. whatever i would use to clamp from the fork to the front backing plate of the brake, i would want it to be simple and effective. simple from the standpoint i can install and remove without a lot of fuss and no alteration to front fork. effective from the standpoint that there is adequate stopping power at no risk of damaging front forks. would like to find a front brake that would look as sort of period correct as possible. would need to be 40 hole hub and i would want to stay with a clincher rim. i believe most British bikes out of 50's and 60's had 40 hole hubs, a small-ish single leading shoe off a 250 or the like. or something out of the 60's-70's-early 80's Japanese dirt bike era.

too bad traffic around here is what it is, but it is.

[Tommo]

I'd like to know how many miles those of you that are rubbishing these brakes have actually ridden pre 1928 J model Harleys.
It's all too easy to condemn something you have never used or that a mate of a mate told you that they don't work.
Dad, when he was alive, along with myself and one of my brothers have done thousands of miles on these bikes and set up properly they work just fine.
Yes they are not as good as modern brakes but the J model doesn't preform like a 1950s/60s motorcycle so you don't need the brakes that they need.
Yes you need to exercise caution if you're riding in traffic but you should be doing that any time you ride an old machine in modern traffic.
In 2003 seven of us did, in 21 days, a combined mileage of close on 30,000 miles across America and none of that seven had any incidents in traffic that would cause you to doubt the brakes.
And just to clear a point we rode them all the way from Vancouver (Canada) to Chicago.
What I'm saying here is what I said right at the start, set up properly, with the right linings, these brakes will pass a modern brake efficiency test.

[TechNoir]

I have the "Export" setup on my 20F and whilst my experience is virtually nothing compared to others commenting on here I do have some observations to share.

Before I took the engine apart I did do a total of about 15 miles on it, not huge but enough to make some comments.

I agree with Eric that, on the earlier J's, the external band operated by a hand lever that was offered as an extra on the home market and was required on some export models is fairly ineffective. It just about stops the bike from rolling on a hill but that is it. If the bike is moving then it seems to do almost nothing.

The internal expanding brake that is operated by a pedal on the earlier bikes is much better. In comparison to my 1938 Triumph I would say that, based on my small amount of experience, it is about 66% as effective as the 1938 bike which has a much more modern style drum brake.

As has been said above, lots of export markets legally required 2 separate brakes so in 1927 there must surely have been a second brake available as an optional extra.

John

[exeric]

I've owned a lot of old motorcycles and only two of them had "good" brakes (my wife's new Sportster, and a '69FLH with a later disc). I've always ridden ahead of where I'm going, so emergency braking hasn't been an issue. The 3 bad accidents I have been the victim of, were the result of blind idiots who didn't see me (so they say). Those accidents had nothing to do with brakes because there is nothing you can do when someone carelessly drives their car into your lane, or turns in front of your lane of traffic. However, having decent brakes does give the rider a better feeling of security, and I think when we build our bikes, we should put effort into properly arcing the shoes, and using an appropriate lining.

[Robert Luland]

At the same time is it not possible to lock the brake up and take a clincher right off the rim?

[exeric]

That's funny, Bob; because I've done just that with a 1920J. I've blamed it on the Coker clinchers, but maybe I should have done something to keep the tire glued to the rim. One guy suggested that I use contact cement on the rim when I mounted the tire. Another guy said I should have filed teeth into the rim. I've also heard that clinchers from that era had tougher sidewalls and held better. I would like to hear from Tommo and get his opinions. I'm joking about it, but that is a real concern.