Troxel and Mesinger Saddle Questions

[MikeW]

Can anyone help with identification and information on this saddle frame? It was among the assorted spares that came with my 21F and 23F projects. I have the Mesinger No. 1 saddle hardware for both these bikes, but also the "orphan" frame in the photos. (The paper labels are just my notes on parts book numbers.)

The seat bar is, of course, the standard Harley 1915-up item. But according to my 1921 and 1923 V Twin parts books, the other hardware is Troxel. This includes the upper and lower braces (top and bottom of the springs); and the springs themselves, which are symmetrical top to bottom. These are definitely the "Troxel Export Saddle" items in the parts books.

The V-shaped tension spring on the top of the frame is illustrated in the parts book as from a 1916 -17 Troxel "Jumbo". The left and right trusses (the Z-shaped arms connecting the seat bar and the bottom spring brace) are 15-17 Troxel. The nose clip looks like nothing I can see in the parts books.

One other mystery. The heavy bar across the bottom of the springs is listed in the parts book as the "Upper" Brace, and the lighter bar, which is on the top of the springs, is listed as the "Lower" Brace.

I have spent fruitless hours on the web trying to find any reference to a Troxel Export Saddle, and looked at countless photos to find something akin to this item. (Wow! How many beautifully restored bikes have "wrong" saddles on them!)

So, to the four questions. (1) What is it? An original Troxel for an early Harley or someone's hybrid? (2) If an original, any ideas on the years it was fitted to J Model H-Ds? (3) Can any one point me to more info or, better still, a picture of an original or restored "Troxel Export Saddle"? (4) Any tips on unscrewing rusted Mesinger spring cups without destroying them - other than the usual heat, Wd-40, and prayer?

Troxel Saddle 001.jpg Troxel Saddle 002.jpg Troxel Saddle 003.jpg Troxel Saddle 004.jpg

[Nils_r]

image.jpgimage.jpgHi- this is identical to the saddle on my barn find 1916- it's for the troxel Export saddle. I have some pics somewhere of the original as found condition as Willy

Best
Nilsr

[MikeW]

Thanks very much for the reply Nils.

This is the first photo I've ever seen of the Troxel Export Saddle and your post goes a long way to answering three of my questions 1. It is a genuine Troxel frame and not a homebuilt hybrid. 2. It was fitted to at least some 1916 H-Ds. 3. And I now have a photo.

I'm not sure whether you are USA based and therefore whether your 1916 is a US or an export motorcycle. The saddle name suggests it was supplied for export bikes but, who knows what the policy was 100 years ago! Is your 1916 an export or US machine?

Cheers

Mike

[TechNoir]

Re: Troxel and Mesinger Saddle Questions

Mike,

I dont know if this is any help but there are lots of pictures of my seat here:

Page 2 has the most pictures of the saddle frame.

My bike is a 20F that was exported to England. I am pretty sure that the saddle is the original one.

John

[Nils_r]

Hi- I live in Norway so it would definetely be an Export model. The bike was put to sleep in a barn before world war II until I found it 1 year ago so I am pretty sure it was delivered like this. The Seat from the 1920 is slightly different- maybe they evolved their design. The bracket to the front of the Seat bar in your pics is slightly different to mine which has only one Hole for attaching to the seat- maybe yours are right and mine was broken- will check as i have got a lazer copy made

Best
Nilsr

[MikeW]

Thanks again Nils, and you too John. The benefits of the forum for our scattered membership are demonstrated again!

John, the saddle you have seems to be the standard model fitted to 18-20 J models - maybe to earlier ones as well, but that I don't know. The initial giveaway at first glance is the springs which are not symmetrical, with the "swell" nearer the bottom of the spring than in the centre as on Nil's and my Troxels. The attaching hardware is different as well. The shape of the saddle is the same as the Mesinger but with the H-D Stamp on the sides.

Nils, is there a Troxel stamp on the saddle itself? I couldn't make it out from the photos you supplied. If there is, a closeup photo would be much appreciated to help me, or a buddy , have a new cover made.

Finally, I personally find the whole saddle situation for J model Harleys a tad confusing, with alternative Troxels on earlier models followed by H-D stamped saddles, then (apparently identical) covers stamped Mesinger,, open and enclosed springs etc. And, of course, similar saddles stamped "Indian" as well. Judging by photos of restored bikes, many owners are not to sure either.

Is there a knowledgeable person out there who can put the story together for us, or point us to previous posts or a reference source?

Mike

[exeric]

This is the Troxel Jumbo that H-D fitted to their motorcycles in '16-'17, and you can see the frame hardware that was used. When it comes to seats for early motorcycles, I think you have to go by the sales literature of that year and then find pictures in advertising literature, and trade journals. There is no doubt that H-D made large purchasing orders with a seat manufacturer and that is what they supplied the bike with for that year. However, when a bike got to a dealership, a customer could have a seat changed to a seat he or she preferred (further confusing the issue). Obviously, there was an export Troxel but the only difference is the spring suspension components. Troxel also made a Jumbo for Excelsior and Henderson and it had the Excelsior 'X' trademark stamped into the leather flaps. Like you said Mike, seats are confusing and possibly the most confusing component on early motorcycles, but I still go back to using factory sales literature as the default guide.

[MikeW]

Thank you Eric.

The jigsaw is starting to come together. The Troxel Jumbo in your catalogue illustration also looks identical to the saddle fitted to most of the 1915 twins I have seen. In the assorted spares that came with my 21F and 23F projects were a few parts for a 1915 twin (two motor bottom ends, a rear hub, an early oil pump and cam gear castings and a small number of other small items) including a Troxel seat frame with springing as per your catalogue. I passed them on to a friend who, as a result, has now almost completed his 1915 twin, with the recovered Jumbo saddle really looking the part.

I understand from what you are saying that H-D bought in their saddles in bulk, I assume from Troxel up to 1917 and, later, Mesinger. If that's correct, then the 18 through 20 saddles like John's in this thread, would have been made by Mesinger, but stamped Harley Davidson each side of the cover? But the 1921-on factory-fitted Mesinger No 1 with the enclosed spring cups were all stamped Mesinger? Have I got it right? I think I may have mistakenly made a hybrid for my 1921, by fitting a very nice (and pricey) reproduction leather cover, stamped Harley Davidson, to a Mesinger No 1 frame. We live and learn. Any comment gratefully received.

At the risk of re-igniting a topic which has gotten a fair thrashing on the Forum, your comments point up and reinforce the challenge in identifying what is 'right' for any year. If a customer in the dealer's shop in Minnesota in 1920 asked the dealer to fit a saddle different to the factory item, then that for my money is authentic and original. Replacing the saddle to go back to factory spec would be an "interesting" decision for a modern owner. But I'd better leave it there.

Thanks again and any further clarification will be gratefully received.

Mike

[TechNoir]

Re: Troxel and Mesinger Saddle Questions

Mike,
An interesting discussion which I (as a bit of a specification nerd for my Triumph) find fascinating.

Erics comments re the customer choice are spot on. When doing my 38 5T I found some examples of bikes that were 100% exactly as they were when they left the dealer from new but differed from the "official" specification. I cannot imagine it was different in the teens and 20's for other marques.

From your comments my saddle seems to be the standard saddle even though its on a machine that was exported. Personally I cannot imagine why any manufacturer would vary items like seats for export purposes. It would be just extra work for no perceivable extra value.

I also agree that if you want an "original" bike then having it like it left the dealer is original even if it not according to the official catalog.

I also think that if an owner of say an early 20's machine then upgraded it in say 1930 then in my mind that is also "original" in that its part of that machines history

John

[Nils_r]

Hi- There is no stamp on the seat- it was identified by which type of a polish company that make replicas. I bought from Them and I am very satisfied with the new seat. The link is http://www.oldtimerservice.riders.pl/part1.htm

Best
Nilsr

[MikeW]

John,

Couldn't agree more with your last comment. Though this is getting off topic for this thread, in a discussion with another AMCA member who lives near me, we agreed that an American motorcycle was an expensive item for a working person in the 1920s in New Zealand. The new owner may have put together enough money to buy a basic machine but couldn't afford a speedometer or lighting set. It wasn't uncommon in this country to have had either or both fitted a couple of years later, and neither may have been the make or model supplied by the factory for the machine when new. That's "original" in my book.

And, some years later, when Joe Rider came to sell his motorcycle to fund a later model, he may well have taken off the expensive speedo to put on his new machine. If you inherit that later machine with the early speedo fitted, then keep it there.

Mike

[MikeW]

Thanks Nils. With that information I think I (or someone else) has enough information now to get the saddle re-covered if I need to.

Regards

Mike

[exeric]

From your comments my saddle seems to be the standard saddle even though its on a machine that was exported. Personally I cannot imagine why any manufacturer would vary items like seats for export purposes. It would be just extra work for no perceivable extra value.

I have British friends who have American bikes that were imported by British dealers. In a few cases, those bikes have British made saddles and it's believed they were shipped to England without saddles. Brooks was, and is a major player in bicycle, and motorcycle seats so perhaps they had enough pull to force importers to use British made seats. Thanks for this great discussion on an overlooked facet of early motorcycles.