Attracting younger people

[T. Cotten]

So, How does a jerk find a clique, Folks?

(Askin' for a friend...)

....Cotten

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Before this gets out of hand . . . let's clarify.


Keith; you are 100% right, we did not connect at Wauseon 2019. I tried three times at that meet to connect with you -- three more times at Wauseon 2022. I did introduce myself to you and asked to talk at 2022; you asked me to come back later because you were busy with club stuff. I did -- you were always busy with someone else. So that you can verify my story -- please check the member log from the meet -- you will see that you personally took a three year membership for me and my wife at the Wauseon meet. I didn't have my membership card and you looked me up and even mentioned you remembered me. That's when I asked if we could finally connect . . .and you said later when you weren't so busy. I get that, so when I came back, I stood for several minutes in your sight line waiting to speak to you -- you did not acknowledge me. So I waited a respectful amount of time and then came back later for another try.

When you make eye contact with a person who keeps coming back and not acknowledging them; I consider that a brush off. You may simply not have totally connected the dots in your mind because you were busy. That's also a valid perspective. In any case, by my count -- that's half a dozen tries right there. I also tried in previous years and by my count, it rounds up to a dozen tries. I've tried to connect via text, email, and in person. I consider that being brushed off -- you seem to have a different opinion. OK, we can agree to disagree.


All that said, I DO owe you an apology. You are 100% right, I did not see you drink a beer or with a beer in your hand. What I saw was you say "I'm headed to see someone" and the someone was in a circle of drinkers 10 feet away. I assumed you were hoisting one and I publicly apologize for this mistake.

Finally, I am sorry you read my paper towel story as implying you were a culprit. I did not mean to imply you had anything to do with it and sorry it was read that way. To anyone reading this: Keith had nothing to do with the paper towel incident and had no knowledge of it.


Keith -- if you want me to revise ANY of these things you believe I have defamed you on -- then I will. If you'd prefer they just stand and folks can read and decide for themselves -- I'm fine with that too.

I stand by my statements concerning my experience as an under 50 and how these less than stellar encounters sour the experience.

I do not believe all AMCA members are jerks and I am not calling out all AMCA members.

I believe we have more jerks and cliques than we are willing to admit.

I know jerks and cliques are big turn offs to my age group as are power dynamics.

I also know I hit a deep nerve here.

[PRG]

The hardest working man in show business, I can personally attest to never having seen Keith drink a beer…..but he’s certainly witnessed me down more than my fair share.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Much like your offer to talk. . . you too could have picked up a phone.

Instead of privately asking me to clarify and then revise, you went nuclear on our forum, right down to reminding us you have the power to tell Mike Love what to take down.

Thanks for proving my point.

PS, did it ever occur to you i may have baited you because of my frustration?

[Keith Kizer]

Steve, (chuckthebeater)

As most regulars on the forum know, I rarely post. When I do, it's important news or obituaries. But you left me no choice. I'm sorry I have to call BS on most of your comments. I base this on the fact that you invoked my personal name in three post in this string which I know are complete lies.

First, you claim I have brushed you off over a dozen times. The first and only time we ever communicated was in a single email thread between May and June, 2019. You wrote me with two great ideas offering to write some pro Sportster / K Model stories for our website and help you promote a $10k bike build online. My exact response was, "So, in two words, "I'm IN. I love your ideas and will do everything possible to help promote your ideas". I explained a backdoor way to reach me if I don't immediately respond to your email. I made a note to look for you at Wauseon. That was four years ago, but my records do not indicate that we spoke. You also never replied to my last email or to take me up on my offer to help promote your event or post your stories.

Second, you claim I am "the worst person you have ever met." We have never met and if we did, it would have been at the AMCA booth at the busiest meet on the schedule, Wauseon. There is little time to carry on meaningful conversations. If I'm the worst, I'm having a harder time believing your numerous post calling every AMCA member you ever met as terrible people. In referring to me you said, "he told me he was way too busy, and his busy was having a beer with some chapter pres ten feet away." If you knew me at all you would know that I've never touched a drop of alcohol in my life. And you for sure never saw me sitting in a chair gabbing. I'm there to work, not play.

Third, you then had the audacity to accuse me of collaborating with whoever stuffed paper towels down your gas tank. Ball face lies. It makes me question every single word you wrote. We have rules on the forum against saying bad things about other people, even if they are true. In this case you are calling out the entire AMCA and its members. I asked our moderator to leave this string up because of the members who actually know what the club is about are willing to defend it.

If you and your wife indeed had a bad experience at a road run, I am truly sorry but that had to be limited to one individual, not everyone in attendance like you make it sound. I'm in the book, I would be happy to have a phone conversation with you anytime you want to vent, but please quit spreading lies about me, the board and our members.

[T. Cotten]

Correction, the Blackhawk Chapter spit out the AMCA, ...

Yes Rich!

And doing fine, thank you.

The AMCA should have learned something from it.

Come down out of your Ivory Towers, and perhaps young folks won't be so turned off.

....Cotten

[RichO]

Correction, the Blackhawk Chapter spit out the AMCA, and out here us boomers get along real well with the young riders and vice versa! Maybe it's a west coast thing but I don't think so. I've seen it back east and mid-west too!

[T. Cotten]

The harsh reality, Folks,...

The only thing that attracts young people is young people.

Boomers haven't a chance.

They even run off other Boomers.

....Cotten
PS: I swore I would never ever join another club. The AMCA spit out Chief Blackhawk,.... and suddenly I belong to two!

[pan620]

I debated whether I'd share my experience because I expected exactly the sort of replies on this thread telling me it is isolated incidents.

Please know I understand others are relaying your experiences joining the AMCA 30 to 40 years ago and the great friendships you've made. I expected the same in joining and in joining a chapter.

Over the past several years I've introduced myself to a lot of people and tried very hard to become an active AMCA member. I've written articles for our chapter newsletter, offered to do pro bono work for the club (I am a professional museum administrator and fundraiser), shared on this site, and the list goes on. Despite constantly trying -- pretty much no one gives me time of day and pretty much all I run into are hostile attitudes towards the bikes I enjoy.

My observation is that unless you're part of an established clique in a chapter -- you're invisible and don't have the great experiences relayed here by older members. And, it ain't easy to get into one of the chapter cliques, either.

My reality has been very different from the "good old days" and it is only because of my thick skin and eternal optimism I remain a member.

But please understand there a LOT of people under the age of 50 into vintage bikes. There's a reason they don't join.

I'd kill to have the experience RichO is explaining about his chapter. It is 180 opposite of what I've experienced.

I have had the same experience at a road run, did not feel welcome at all except for a few folks i already new but they mostly busy hanging out with the people who were in charge, worked on 2 bikes that were broke down the first day and not one thank you. Last one for me! I also attend a swap meet the local chapter puts on for the last 5 years or so, waved to the "president" and his "assistant" one the way out and said see you next year, they stared at me. I am 61 and to old for that stuff.

[Lyle Manheimer]

Chuck, sad to hear about your bad experiences. I have been a member since 1976 with a lapse of a couple of years in the '80's, family stuff. I had to join to vend at Ft. Mott and I had a great time, I was 26 at the time. Over the years I have found that AMCA meets are welcoming events with many great people willing to talk and share knowledge and stories regardless of age. Now that I am a senior citizen I still find this to be true at the meets, I always take the time to stop and speak to people about what they are riding or selling regardless of age or brand. I also consider myself a motorcyclist.
I have not experienced many Road Runs but I do believe these events can be very cliquey. Riders may often break off into groups of people that know one another or have like interests. To be shunned by others is unconscionable and unacceptable but I have also witnessed it.
So don't give up on it, there is always room for improvement, no matter what you are involved in. Keep writing those informative posts as I enjoy them as well.

[BigLakeBob]

Chuckthebeatertruck, I'm sorry about your experiences. Glad you have thick skin. I think we are all much better off with all the knowledgeable info you freely share with us here on the forum. All your repairing techniques, very detailed builds, and all the time you take to write and respond to a subject.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

And, i want to clarify i have zero issues with my chapter. It’s hard to break into established groups of friends. I know this from long experience and was prepared for it to take several years to become part of a group where i had no existing relationships. again, most folks in my age group and younger don’t want to attend stuff for years before people move from remembering your face, to remembering your name, to inviting you as a buddy.

My wife expected the ladies in the chapter to adopt her a bit more. She had no luck at our winter meet striking up convo and relationships. people naturally moved into groups and it is not easy to just walk up and break into other peoples circle of conversation, especially for women. She thought all the talk about AMCA latching onto lady riders was real. her experience has been anything but that and after more than two years of trying, she’s close to done trying. Best convo she had was with the husband of a chapter guest! This isn’t anyone’s fault. people are people. However, unless chapters make a concerted effort to latch onto new members, they will stop coming within a meeting or two. New folks walking into a sea of strangers sorta need a “probation officer” who makes sure they actually meet people and feel part of the group. Otherwise, you get a handshake and a few hours by yourself wondering how to break in when no one includes you in their convo because they are talking exclusively to old friends.

similarly, i tried four times over two years to join the chapter close to me. Crickets chirp louder. so i joined a chapter north of me and drive or ride a minimum of three hours each way to attend chapter activities. when you have to work that hard to join a chapter and then need to spend a few years becoming part of the chapter, one has to wonder why.

conversely, almost all the actual friends i’ve made in the old motorbike world the past ten years have come from participation in online forums. all but one of these folks is twenty years my senior. they’ve invited me camping with their buddies, stopped by the shop for beers, invited me out to their scooter shed, and gotten the families together for dinner. A couple of those guys have become close enough friends we now plan vacations.

the problem with keeping young members is that they take us at face value. if we say we are family oriented, want young people, and want to encourage lady riders, then we actually have to walk the talk. my experience in nearly a decade of membership, 30 years of amca meets, and a couple years in a chapter say otherwise. like i said, i’ve met a lot more people who are a LOT kinder via forums than i have face to face.

and, frankly, the worst people i’ve met our our national directors and ed. roy k and dan krause are cool, but i’ve had nothing but shitty encounters with all the others. spagnolli was a first class a hole to me, lonnie even worse. Keith has brushed me off more than a dozen times over the past several years. my favorite was when he told me he was way too busy, and his busy was having a beer with some chapter pres ten feet away. funny part is that every time i’ve tried to talk to a board member or keith it is to VOLUNTEER, not to bitch. we are not talking about one encounter, this is dozens of tries over several years! yet most every magazine says we need volunteers. literally, wtf?

worse, a judge recruited me. i said ok and gave my info. over the next TWO YEARS i followed up and never heard back. even saw the person face to face. so, now i want nothing to do with the program and honestly laugh every time i see a call for judging volunteers in our magazine. it’s complete and total bullshit to blow off people trying to volunteer. you could pay me at this stage and i’d still tell you to pound salt. once bitten, twice shy.

as one more aside, i lived in the uk for years and adore model engineering. i restarted my subscription to a model engineering mag and noted my former shropshire address for clubs. i literally got a call within a week from a model engineering club inviting me to stop by next time i was visiting shropshire! they know i’m 4000 miles away, but wanted to make sure i knew i was welcome if i wanted to stop by. i bought a one year subscription the next day and sent the club that called me 50 quid as a keep up the good work. i’ll be there in march and will most certainly stop by for a cuppa and to watch the trains. some clubs actually know how to treat people with respect and friendliness.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

A buddy asked me last night why i “exageratted” my amca negative experiences. To help illustrate i’m not joking about the bs hostility i’ve encountered, here’s a story with pics.

i helped a buddy rebuild his 1960 stroked sportster. he was sooooo happy with his bike i convinced him we should ride some old strokers around a meet. We got thumbs up from the sportster crowd and $hit from everyone else.

We were so well loved by welcoming amca members looking to mentor and latch onto young guys that some asshat stuffed a roll of paper towels in his gas tank to say welcome to the club.

Made the bike stall out. it’s a magneto fired bike. had it not been discovered before we left at night, an accident would have been likely. Not real “friendly” in my world to mess with another dudes scooter. real pita to dig them out.

photographic evidence attached.

No chance of my buddy becoming an amca member now. won’t ever be back to a meet after that bs.

i also had someone deliberately move my guzzi a couple aisles over at another meet “for fun.” It was a bitch to find my bike and i seriously thought it was stolen. i rode to the meet and all my stuff was with my bike. the suspect who did it is unknown to me but was arm and arm with Keith Keizer. real welcoming to have a stranger do that to another guys scooter.


like i said, i have a thick skin.

but if anyone thinks the average under 50 or under 40 will put up with this, you’re nuts. i’ve never had this sorta crap happen with british or italian bike groups. it’s only amca.

[RichO]

Chuck I'm truly sorry for the way you and your wife have been treated. Our chapter embraces every new member like their family because they are and it's how we survive as a chapter. Or members ride everything under the sun. Our past president's son rides my old chopped rigid framed Sportster I bought new over 35 years ago. It still makes me smile every time he rides by. I hope you and your wife experience far better treatment in the future. Jerks are jerks and are not to be tolerated, period!

[exeric]

I have 2 chapter stories that I find amusing in retrospect. I had a 1961 Corvette and a fellow Corvette owner at work suggested I join the regional chapter. I went to my first meeting and the only person that spoke to me said my car was too old for their kind of club. My 2nd chapter story was my first meeting at a new Florida chapter. I brought my (not running) '11 Merkel so there would be something to look at, and talk about. The only members that took the time to look at it thought it was a historical joke and picked it apart like buzzards dining on road-kill (yet they joined an antique motorcycle club). So, I understand the disgust with hobbyist elites, and club cliques that are counter productive by their very existence. I've always contended that most hobbies are a lonely pursuit and that clubs should be the remedy by supporting, and getting like minded people together; however clubs, and their chapters are also the haven for ego maniacs, and petty dictators. I think that has always been true, and will continue as long as people are involved. I think each person has to define their involvement, and tolerance for the culture of any club.