1908 H-D Racer on Ebay: Rare Article or Total Fake?

[HJahn]

Is this thing for real or a fake? Looking through books and early photos, I can't find any Harley-Davidson that looks like this. In fact, I can hardly see any genuine Harley parts on it at all -- except for the repro decals maybe. That's not even a Harley motor, is it? It certainly is NOT a 1908 motor that would have horizontal head fins and different crankcase.

Yet people have bid this thing up to $15 grand!

What gives?

Fake or real: Opinions?

Afterall, we (AMCA) are supposed to be the experts, eh?

I really like the idea of putting fenders on a "board track racer" in case of rain during the race. The mailbox stickers on the year plate is another nice touch. Could the white paint job be a subtle reference to this bike being a "little white lie?" (Actually IMO a HUGE fraud).

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ebay Item # 2400375121
direct link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2400375121

Includes a link with 28 photos. Can somebody who knows how post a couple?

Description (from the Ebay link):

1908 Harley-Davidson Track Racing Motorcycle

Vehicle Description

This auction is for a 1908 Harley Davidson Board Track Racing Motor Cycle. It was designed to be raced at the old board track arenas. It is a model 4A. Approximately 370 of these models were made in 1908. It is not known how many exist today. This motorcycle is approximately 60% original, the other 40% has been painstakingly restored to be as close to the original as possible. Give that parts for this motorcycle are next to impossible to find, the restorer did an incredible job. The original crankcase was stamped “4A33” for the model number 4A and the production number 33. The old plate with this number has been attached to the new bottom half of the crankcase as have the old letters, “Harley-Davidson Milwaukee”. The bike has a gloss white restoration finish with repro decals throughout. This motorcycle is perfect for a Harley museum, Harley dealer display or Harley enthusiast who wants a vintage bike for his collection.

The engine has 26.84 cubic inches of displacement. It generates 3.25 horsepower. It has a coil dry cell battery ignition. The engine will turn over and has been restored to be able to run, we do not guarantee that it will run nor do we recommend that it be run, but it is possible as is or with some minor modification. We are selling it solely for display purposes. The engine has an exhaust cut lever, timing pull lever and a drip feed lubrication system. There are two tanks, one for gas, one for oil. The final drive is a belt of flat leather. You can pedal this motorcycle just like a bicycle. 50MPH was the top speed of this motorcycle. The tires are 26”. This Harley is 84” in overall length and 38” in height from the ground to the top of handlebars. It weights approximately 200 pounds.

The 60% original pieces include, but are not limited to: the handlebars, part of the front end, part of the rear end, the upper engine, carburetor, piston, valves, levers and controls and the belt engager. An original non-restored piece has also been retained as a souvenir.

The 40% non-original parts include, but are not limited to: the pedals, part of front end, part of the rear end, the tires and wheels, the rebuilt 1909 style battery box (the 1908 battery box is triangular in shape), the seat, most of the bolts, the rebuilt 1908 style gas and oil tanks and the fenders.

[Pete Gagan]

You are quite right about the Harley, as it appears to have been made up by someone, with a few original parts, but not many. If you read the owner's disertation on the bike, its fairly obvious he is uninformed, but is quite candid about it. As to the bid price, it just proves that there is a ****er born every minute! I hope the new owner doesn't show up for AMCA judging.
Pete Gagan, Prez.

[Pete Gagan]

PS
It looks like I was a victim of the site's automatic censorship. For ****er, read "uninformed person".
Pete

[HJahn]

Originally posted by Pete Gagan
You are quite right about the Harley, as it appears to have been made up by someone, with a few original parts, but not many. If you read the owner's disertation on the bike, its fairly obvious he is uninformed, but is quite candid about it. As to the bid price, it just proves that there is a ****er born every minute! I hope the new owner doesn't show up for AMCA judging.
Pete Gagan, Prez.

Thanks for the feedback Pete!

Un-informed is right. Shouldn't this description be considered fraud and misrepresentation? Any lawyer types around here know if it is legal to sell something in this manner?

Placing these kind of bids on this fake is total lunacy!

Shows how little is known abou the real early Harleys -- zilch.

If there is just ONE original "1908" Harley part on this wreck, I can't find it.

IMO, it's a total and complete FRAUD.

The only thing lacking on this thing are lights for night racing and training wheels for beginners!

Actually, I HOPE this POS does come up before the AMCA judges. Like I said before, aren't we supposed to be the experts? Letting this thing pass would be criminal....

[HJahn]

PS:

oh yeah, another thing lacking on this beauty is a gen-u-ine "title" signed by all four of H-D's founders.

[HJahn]

More info:

Here is some more data from the ebay description. This seller is a BS artist of the first degree. I really like the part that says "This number came off the old crankcase along with the Harley Davidson Milwaukee letters, both of which have been placed on the new crankcase." Old crankcase? New crankcase? "H-D & Milwaukee" lettering transferred? What is this? A new breed of "Franken-harley"? Nothing is original. Nothing is Harley-Davidson except the repro decals. Isn't this taking the trademarked Harley-Davidson name in vain along with ruining the credibility of the antique motorcycle collecting field overall?

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quote: We have received some additional information about this motorcycle which we wanted to pass along to our bidders and viewers. Thank you all for the overwhelming response this auction has generated. We have been inundated with emails, and I have tried to compile these comments into something to share with everyone. We have confirmed with a Harley dealer that the model number 4A is correct for a 1908 engine. This number came off the old crankcase along with the Harley Davidson Milwaukee letters, both of which have been placed on the new crankcase. The new crankcase was put together by a small engine shop. The engine will turn over, but we have not tried to run it. After reviewing pictures of the 1908’s and 1911’s people have sent us, we have concluded that this bike certainly looks more like a 1911 than a 1908 in appearance. It seems that there are parts from both years, and possibly other years present. The owner restored the bike to the condition in which he found it, which is as you now view it. The gentleman who restored the bike has expertise in sheet metal work, and he did the tanks and battery box himself. He is not a professional Harley restorer, but he did the best he could with the parts he could find or build. Anyone who has restored a Harley this old will tell you how difficult it is to find parts and information to restore with. The newer parts have been crafted to resemble the parts which were originally on the bike as it was found. The tanks and battery box are more in the style of a 1911 Harley. We do not intend to convey that this motorcycle is true in every detail to an original 1908, it is not. Our guess is that this was a 1908 motorcycle which was modified to be raced at the board tracks in 1911 or 1912. Everyone who has contacted us has agreed that this was indeed a board track racer. Also, we do not know the actual mileage of this motorcycle as there is no odometer. We just had to put something in the mileage form above. Obviously, there is also no VIN number. The listing shows an eBay Payments icon, this was inserted automatically, but we are not accepting credit cards payments for this item. Like we said before, we are selling this motorcycle 100% AS IS with no warranty expressed or implied. This motorcycle is almost 100 years old, and like anything this old, it is not in perfect condition. That said, it is still a very nice motorcycle, and will make a nice display piece. With the 100th anniversary of Harley-Davidson now upon us, many people have expressed an interest in owning this piece to display in their shops, dealerships or private collections. It will work well for any of these purposes. We have tried our best to present all the facts about this Harley that we know. We encourage anyone interested in purchasing it to email us with any and all questions before bidding. We will be happy to answer them to the best of our knowledge. Thank you all, The Online Auction Company, LLC.

[Jim M]

Fake

Can't believe this. Just watched it sell to some dude for $16,895. An uninformed person every minute is right! I would like to see the guys face when he picks it up and finds that the gas tank is really just a welded up mail box. I liked the bungee cord holding the oil tank (?) contraption. It's actually kind of sad. The guy or gal who bought this just got hosed. Antique motorcycles are a source of pleasure for many. Unfortunately there are those who pass off a pile of parts as something it ain't. Lets just see if the guy or gal who bought this sells it to some other uninformed person and makes another victim. So it continues...

[AdminGuy]

I was curious about the holaballo -I attached the image of the bike for others . The seller I felt was honest. He was just polishing his words into a nice sales pitch.

The bike is very akward looking. Out of balance. I wonder what the buyer is going to do with it? I also am shocked someone paid the doe for that. Oh well...

[B. Rodencal]

Wow someone just paid nearly 17,000. for a schwinn! Next someone will pay 20,000. for a motorized grocery cart we see running around Davenport that will be advertised as a merkel.

[HJahn]

Originally posted by AdminGuy
I was curious about the holaballo -I attached the image of the bike for others . The seller I felt was honest. He was just polishing his words into a nice sales pitch.

The bike is very akward looking. Out of balance. I wonder what the buyer is going to do with it? I also am shocked someone paid the doe for that. Oh well...

I seriously doubt the seller's "honesty." Everything he says is a hemming and hawing attempt to pawn this "thing" off as a Harley with no guarantee that it is. Notice how he changes his story from "1908" to "1908 and 1911" parts based upon some emails he received. His entire story stinks to high heaven. Notice that he doesn't give the name of the builder of this machine or its background, because in truth the builder was a con-artist and this contraption has no background as a Harley-Davidson!

Does anyone see a real H-D part on this contraption? (Besides the repop decals). T'aint no Harley motor. T'aint no Harley frame. T'aint no Harley fork. T'aint no Harley!

This beauty should be written up in the club mag with this title: "How to turn $20 Worth of Repro Harley Decals (and a Hefty Dose of Bullsh*t) into a Cool $17 Grand."

[joe]

all i can say is you must be out of your mind!

[AdminGuy]

Your right! HJahn - that would be a perfect article headline. Now type the story and send it to Rick. We need good stories! I'm sure the membership could use a good laugh.

I'm still laughing that someone acually bought this "thing" for 17K. It's so ludicrous. You have to laugh at the whole thing.

I think I'm going to paint my daughters bicycle orange and strap a mail box on and bolt an old air compressor motor into it. I'll call it an earily prototype. Do you think anyone will notice the training wheels?

[joe]

don't forget the factory style mail box numbers on the front fender.i think i need a set of them for my 1917 harley.joe

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

FRAUD

It stinks of FRAUD! I hope the buyer has a recourse thru e'Bay to stop payment! I buy and sell thru e'bay myself and its just this kind of thing that spoils it for honest sellers/buyers! Buyer beware is an understatement! To say that the seller is a smooth talker is being kind. More like a doubletalker! He better hope he can explain it to the Attorney General of his State. Cause if the buyer and e'bay feels that there's been a Fraud commited (REGARDLESS OF HOW HE WORDS IT), This guy might be doing 3-5!!

[AFJ]

Faking is fairly common

This episode of the obviously "created" so-called "1908 H-D racer" reminds me of an experience only a few months ago when I was asked to confirm the identity and suggest a value for a couple of bikes a fellow was looking at to buy.

The pictures I was sent were supposed to be of a 1926 James two-stroke and a 1934 Douglas two-stroke. If they had been what they were supposed to be they would have commanded fairly respectable prices, particularly the Douglas, since they only made a very few of these twostroke singles from 1933 - 35 and only a couple are known to have survived.

Both bikes were not what they claimed to be. The '26 James was actually a 1949 - 1953 100 cc James - very common and in the condition it appeared to be in maybe worth a few hundred as a project or parts bike.

The supposed '34 Douglas, - and it had the tank painted in the correct Douglas colors and pattern and the correct style of tank logo - and the Douglas name on the flywheel magneto, was a '46 - '48 James ML 125 cc lightweight of which 13,000 were made.

Somebody, particularly with the second bike went to an awful lot of trouble to try to fake a very rare and little known motorcycle, presumably in order to cash in on someone else's ignorance.

AFJ