J Model Paint colours

[MikeW]

I've two questions, neither of which I've been able to get a clear answer on to date.

First, the remaining original paint on the frame and rear fender of my 23 project is Olive Green, which I am advised was an option for those customers who didn't want the new Brewster Green standard colour for 1922 and 1923. But what were the lining colours for a factory paint Olive Green 23J? Do I assume that the lining was the same as for 1924 when the factory reverted to Olive Green? (There looks like the remains of a red or maroon stripe on my 23 fender.)

Second, I have been advised and have read (perhaps on the John Pierce Colorwrite site), that the sidecar frames for late teens J model Harley-Davidsons were Brewster Green (or perhaps another dark green - Pullman Green?), even though the bikes and the sidecar bodies themselves were Olive. Can anyone verify this and, if so, did that apply in 1921?

Thanks for all the help provided to date. In the next month or so I'll post some pics of progress on my 21F restoration.

[Robert Luland]

Sidecar frames were black. Only the tub and fender were painted the color of the bike. Bob L

[Ric Bolduc]

I have original sidecar frames and springs for 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1921 and each has remnants of Brewster Green paint...

[MMasa]

The 1912-1918 Parts book lists "Dark Gray" as color for the sidecar chassis in 1915 - 1916.
It then lists "Brewster Green" as the color for sidecar chassis in 1917 - 1918.
1919 Accessory catalog shows both dark gray and brewster green as sidecar chassis colors but does not indicate years of application.
I'm with Bob that at some point the sidecar chassis color became black but when exactly that was is still a mystery to me.
Mark

[MMasa]

sidecar chassis color

Ric
Maybe 1922 was the year of the switch???
Brewster green body with a black chassis???
Mark

[Ric Bolduc]

Hi Mark, I've done some prior research on this subject and from what I can determine, the frames were Dark Gray in 1915 and 1916, Brewster Green from 1917 through 1932, and Black beginning in 1933. I also have an original 1931 QT two-passenger sidecar frame and springs that have traces of the original Brewster Green paint, which helps validate the theory.

[MMasa]

Ric
I can't really argue with you (and I don't want to) as I don't know. I do have quite a few JD attachment parts that are definitely black paint. All of the sidecar frames that I have are all rust with no paint remaining. How did you determine your position if I can ask?
Mark

[Robert Luland]

I agree, were is it written that these frames were Brewster green.

[MikeW]

Can we keep this thread going for a tad longer?

It seems to me that the most reliable sources for paint colours are (a) original paint components and (b) factory literature. When both validate each other, that is close to authoritative. The problem with statements in books and on websites (secondary sources as my old history teacher would call them) is that even "experts" pick up and repeat what others have said. So even when there are two or three books or websites saying the same thing, they may all just be repeating an original unreliable assertion.

My interpretation of where this thread has got to on the Brewster Green question is that:

(1) Mark has factory literature which specifies Brewster Green sidecar frames for 17-18, and perhaps 19. Ric has sidecar frames for 17, 18 and 19 with traces of Brewster Green paint. That looks to me like a pretty good case for Brewster Green sidecar frames for these three years.

(2) Ric has sidecar frames for 21 and 31, with either traces of or painted in Brewster Green. But there is no factory literature yet produced to verify this.

(3) Bob is clear that sidecar frames were black. I think that there is plenty of evidence that this was the case in the 30s.

So the big remaining question is when the change to black took place. If members could help answer this it would be a big help to restorers. (What seems certain is that some J model restorations with Olive sidecar frames are probably not accurate.)

Two other matters. I read many years ago an article on the history of automotive paint. The author stated that Brewster Green was a colour that dated from coachbuilding days and was derived by adding yellow pigment to black. I've tried it and it works! Obviously the amount of yellow determines the "greenness" of the final shade, and what can look black in the shed looks green in the sunlight. I have heard that the breakdown of the yellow pigment over time causes the black to dominate - certainly that looks to be the case on old frames and crankcases - but I have no idea whether Harley-Davidson used the traditional formula or a new brew.

And finally, I'm still keen on an answer if possible to the other question in my original post. Is the lining on a factory painted Olive Green 1923 J Model the same as for 1924 - maroon edged in black and centred in gold?

Mike

[Ric Bolduc]

My sources for the Brewster green on sidecar frames was from original sales literature that I viewed (besides the original paints remnants on the frames and springs I have)... I also have a lot of original photos but those don't help much being in black and white. I'll see if I can dig up some of that sales literature.

[duffeycycles]

Top pic,'15 sidecar had 3 coats enamel 1 varnish..Bottom pic ,the sidevan had 2paint 1enamel 1 varnish...GREY

[Robert Luland]

Been though five different side car brochures and the only one that even mentions Brewster Green is the 1923 and that is just a reference to the body, not the frame. Come on boys, show me the beef not the bullshit. Bob L

[Ric Bolduc]

I know the 1917 Sales Catalogue does say the sidecar frame is Brewster Green in the sidecar specifications section... I believe there's a copy of the 1917 catalogue in the virtual library. I'll need to spend some time looking for the other examples.

[1950Panhead]

Come on boys, show me the beef not the bullshit.

Robert! Are these color brochures? Look at the frame man, tell us what you see.

[Robert Luland]

I see black mate, black!