4 speed tranny rebuild question

[bobdo]

Hey everybody,
I would greatly appreciate any suggestions and answers to my questions on building my 4 speed tranny. This is a first for me. My goal is to get this bike completed with enough break in miles to make Wauseon this year. I expect I'll have more questions later, but for now I have two. I need to press the speedometer gear onto the countershaft cluster. I don't have a press so I plan to freeze the cluster, heat the speedometer gear & tap in place with a piece of pipe or something. The shoulder on the countershaft is wider than the gear. Do I simply center it? I'm thinking since its a helical gear & the speedo drive interfaces at an angle that it finds its happy place? I can't find any info on this. Also, Palmer says to stake it in place. I'm interpreting that as center punching a few spots into each side of the countershaft shoulder keeping the gear from sliding sideways? That makes sense, but I would think the shoulder on the countershaft would be hardened. Thanks in advance, Bob

[Robert Luland]

Bob, be careful with that gear. I've had originals that I pressed off and when I went to install them on the new Andrews cluster, I was able to put them on by hand. Robbie pointed out to me that they are staked at the factory. You got to look hard to see the marks. I also had an aftermarket gear that was also loose. Well I solve the problem permanently (See picture). I tack welded the little sucker on. used four little C clamps to hold and center it. I wiped some nozzle dip anti welding spatter compound on the cluster gears so nothing would stick. You have to use the clamps or the first tack you do will cool and shrink pulling the gear. Once ya start move quick. The clamps also center the gear on its perch. Hope this helps, Bob L

[Rubone]

Bob,
Centering the gear is the best you can do. Remember that the shaft has end play so if not centered the end play will exaggerate the position on way or the other, so centered is best. And you don't stake the cluster gear, but rather the spiral drive gear. The cluster should have a slight bevel on either side and the stakes will keep the drive gar centered on it.
And it presses on easily so no big deal, no need for a press. Be sure to check that it is running squarely though as it can be installed cocked and will eat gears in that case.
Good luck
Robbie

[bobdo]

Thank you guys,
I haven't tried to put the speedo gear on yet. Now I'm anxious to get home from work & see if its as loose as you say.
If so, I'll tack weld it like you showed. If its a decent fit as it should be, I'll stake the gear as Robbie pointed out. I'm grateful
for the info. It's all new Andrews gears so I felt like I needed to get a new speedo gear too. I don't know who made it, but I had
to grind some thin metal off the "lead ins".

[Robert Luland]

I also had to grind off the same thing.

[bobdo]

Bob & Robbie,
You guys have been a great help, thanks.
I was able to slide the speedo gear onto the cold cluster by hand. I noticed light between the two surfaces, so the speedo gear must not have been ground well.
I tried to center punch ( stake) the gear, but it was too hard. I couldn't make a mark, so I'm going to follow Bob's advice & tack weld it today. I don't have anti spatter so I'll grease it & wrap it in heavy duty foil. Maybe I can figure out how to post a pic later.
I mentioned I might have more questions.....just when I thought I could bang this out in a weekend, parts ordered don't fit. I bought a repro throwout bearing & rod & they don't even fit together. Where's a good source for these quality parts? I currently have an early bearing, rod & two finger set up. The ordered repro is later style with just the single step on the rod end. How does this work on the two finger when it doesn't fit between the fingers? I'm replacing my old early type because the rod is wore out. Thanks, Bob

[T. Cotten]

Bob!

I urge you to put the cluster gear between centers, so you can use a dial indicator to read the sideways runout of the worm gear, before attempting to secure it.
It can be trued with gentle taps of a mallet and dowel, but take great care not to strike near the ends of the teeth.

It shall be quite fortunate if it stays true after welding, and let us hope the gear retains its hardness in those spots as well.

Considering the quality of Andrews products over the years, I wouldn't hesitate attempting to run a knurl upon the gear flange. It may well be soft enough to provide enough grip (with a Loctite for good measure) that welding can be avoided.

....Cotten

[bobdo]

Thanks Cotten,
I appreciate the help. This kind of precision is what I expect & why I posed the question in the first place. Unfortunately,
I don't have access to a lathe. I've been around complete shops for the last 30 years, but since the economy has gone in the toilet
I'm left with what's in my basement, not much. So, I'm kind of a shade tree mechanic of late, making do with what I can using mostly
hand tools & ingenuity. Probably much like the guys back in the 30's & 40's working in the barn. I do have a small Mig welder, so Bob's suggestion
appealed to me. I understand the need to just tack weld, enough to keep it in place & no more. You raised some doubt, but I guess I just talked
myself back into it because I don't know what else to do.
Also, following up on my throwout bearing rant. I went back to Palmer's book & reread. I guess the repop is the later type. I just don't understand
the fit between the bearing & rod. The rod has a bevel to the reduced diameter end causing the bearing to not seat flat against it, making it wobble.
Damn, I wish I had a lathe. -Bob

[bobdo]

Cotton Bob & Robbie,
Well, I had everything set up ready to weld & I decided to call my brother in FLA to see if he had any recommendations since he's a welder.
He felt that the welds would crack due to the hardness of the gear & countershaft. He has a nice shop with all the necessary stuff including
a big lathe, so I'm sending it down to him. He's also the guy who got me started on two wheels, so he knows what to do. He said he might
knurl the ID of the gear instead of the countershaft.
I had hoped to take care of this myself & quickly. Getting enough breakin miles on her before Wauseon is looking doubtful.

[bobdo]

Hello again everybody,
I thought I owed the forum an update. My brother tried to knurl, but the metal was too hard. He ended up "tack" tig welding the speedo gear on. It looks just like Bob's cluster. I've talked to a few people & this seems uncommon to have a bad interference fit. There seems to be two camps on this, those that think it shouldn't be a problem & those that look nervous.
I have another problem that I hope someone can help with.
Fourth gear won't free spin when the sprocket nut is tightened. (no, the dog is not engaged) The mainshaft assembly spins freely, but fourth gear is locked tight onto the shaft. When the nut & sprocket are removed, fourth gear spins freely, independant of the mainshaft. The concave side of the sprocket is against the case but not touching. The only part of the sprocket making contact is at the spacer, as it should be. Everything seems right & I was more than careful. I've studied the service manual, Palmers book & I even have a tranny blueprint. I used a .070" thrust washer on fourth that gave me an end play of .007". Palmers book states an assembly procedure that puts the sprocket on after complete assembly. That doesn't seem like it would make a difference.
I sure would appreciate any of your wisdom. I'd like to break in the bike this Fall. Thanks, Bob

[Robert Luland]

Bob I'm jealous, Who are you to have all the fun. First off, did you change the main gear (or as you call it fourth gear)? If it's the later one without the indentation in the face it will do exactly the problem your having. The part has to be 35065-38. Unfortunately I just used the last early main gear I had in the shop, so no picture. Buy yourself a parts book to go along with Bruce's scriptures. As far as the speedo ring goes. Don't sweat it. There is a reason the Harley engineers chose to make the mating gear fiber instead of steel. So it could self destruct without doing any damage. I never caught the other posts or I would have told you to forget the Knurling thing and saved ya a lot of time. Bob L

[Robert Luland]

Bob your killing me. The good in me wouldn't let me rest. I just went out to the swap meet bins. The one on the left is early and the one on the right later. Bob L

[bobdo]

Bob,
Man I don't want to kill ya! You are a good guy & I owe you more than one cold drink. You've helped me out a lot.
I've got the early main gear. Someone on "the other forum" brought up the same point, so I double checked.
It's definitely the early gear & the Andrews box even confirmed it.
I've got all new stock Andrews gears, mainshaft, etc. & even some NOS HD parts. I've got a parts book too.
I studied this & I can't imagine what went wrong. Someone else said that they once had a main gear that had
the bushing too far in, that it had to extend out a little on the clutch side. I don't understand that, you would think it would be in a bind
all the time then. Mine is fine free spinning on the mainshaft without the sprocket & nut tightened. With the sprocket & nut tightened
the main (4th) gear is locked solid on the mainshaft, but the mainshaft still spins.
What fibre gear are you talking about? Thanks, Bob

[Robert Luland]

Bob, I’ve seen the bushing thing before. On the inside it will be a splined out. Andrews inserts theirs with a die and find hard to believe that’s the case. The sprocket also has an indent. Do you have it the right side around. The revere must face the tranny case.

[indianut]

Do you have the spacer behind the sprocket? Is the race Properly installed?