440 Handling problem

[stevekleincustom]

I have started riding my 440 this spring after many years of ownership and a prolonged restoration process. Two questions to ask our AMCA members with more Four experience than I have.

A) When riding at 45-60 mph the bike "pulls to the left. I have put it up on the lift and checked rear wheel alignment to the front wheel using two straight edges. Straight edges touch both front and rear sidewalls of front tire and both front and rear sidewalls of rear tire. The rear wheel is aligned properly and the chain is running dead straight between the sprockets etc...

B) The front end does not show any "tweak" when inspecting alignment with downtubes of the frame.

When I let off hand pressure on the handlebars, It is necessary to slide to the right side of the solo saddle a bit and lean to the right to keep the bike from pulling to the left. Not a bad pull.... but bothersome on a good afternoon ride.

Q1 - Is this a tolerable trait of fours since the flywheel and crankshaft are running in-line with the centerline of the machine?

Q2 - I am 6' 2' tall and have a longer than normal torso...hence when riding I am hunched over more than is comfortable on a longer distance ride. Any suggestions on a taller setup for handlebars to add comfort to my taller seated height. I guess I can take a top triple tree clamp and have bars bent to the correct rise and pull to suit me and then send to the chrome shop? Just thought I'd ask Indian riders if they know of a different Indian bar that is already manufactured that would fit and better suit me?

Thank you for your time and any suggestions would be appreciated. It's a great running bike and would like to ride it much more than I have with improvements to these small issues being sought.

All The Best

[redfred84]

4our handling

Hi Steve,
Doesn't sound good in the handling dept. The engine torque doesn't effect any of this. Something is out-of-whack. A saggy rear plunger may effect your "pull" to one side. But making sure that EVERYTHING is straight & aligned is optimum. Same with all the bushings in the front end, and neck bearings. Too loose, or tight has weird effects on the neck bearings. Another odd-ball charactoristic of these leafspring front ends is the fit of the handle bars to the fork stem. Your handlebars actually form the top triple clamp, and if they aren't grabbing that fork stem all the way around when squeezed by those 2 long bolts that hold your horn on, then you usually experience a shimmy.
I'm heading out in the morning Wed, straight to your house for a house call! See you Friday.
RF.

[exeric]

Neck bearings were the culprit on my '40 Chief. I went through that bike from front to rear and replaced bushings, wheel bearings, and slipper springs and ignored the neck bearings. I thought it was just too gruesome to autopsy the fork assembly, however, it continued to pull to either side and riding without both hands on the bars was suicidal. Out of desperation I tore the fork down and found a lower bearing with a broken inner race and a few missing balls. It is now my favorite handling old bike and far superior to later Chiefs, and H-Ds with fat 16s.

[stevekleincustom]

440 Handling Further Diagnosis

Thanks Red Fred and Eric;

My suspicion has been the left rear plunger assembly. Here's why:
The botton of the assembly is clamped in the lower frame with a pinch bolt. The bottom of the left plunger assembly is approximately 1/8" lower than the frame and the right plunger is flush with the bottom of the frame. I spread the pinch assembly and was unable to get the plunger assembly to move upward. Tried with frame jacked up and with bike weight on rear tire. Have never had one of these plungers apart and am suspicious there is a center threaded assembly that is keeping me from raising the bottom of the plunger upward since the top is kept within the frame cap. Hope that's clear as mud?

May be the head bearings? Will see if I have any play there tonight after work?

Fred....Not planning on leaving for Kerrville until Sat a.m. Call when you get to Georgetown Friday. If you arrive soon enough...I will load the 440 in the race trailer last.

361.652.8300
steve@steveklein.com

If I give up prior to your arrival you may find a 440 in the ditch. Take it

[Northwoods_Maine]

Steve Klein

PM'd you a few days back on another subject. Good luck in getting the 4 straightened out - no pun intended.

[indianut]

Hopefully you have not damaged your Plunger, or the Threads in your Frame, by trying to force it upwards. Loosen the pinch bolt and using the FLATS on the sides of the lower section, Carefully Screw it upwards into the frame a little further until it is even with the right side. It probably won't fix your handling issue, but the plunger lowers will at least be even.

[Greg H]

Maybe of interest just stripped my 440 plungers, found this on left side top spring

[redfred84]

4our handling issues.

I was able to check out and even ride Steve Kliens gorgeous '41 4our during my visit to Texas for the big Road Run they hosted. Turns out that the links from the leaf spring, down to the rockers were different lengths!
Steve swapped them, and things got a lot better, but something isn't straight for miss-matched links on a front end like this.
RF.

[fillibuster]

I was able to check out and even ride Steve Kliens gorgeous '41 4our during my visit to Texas for the big Road Run they hosted. Turns out that the links from the leaf spring, down to the rockers were different lengths!
Steve swapped them, and things got a lot better, but something isn't straight for miss-matched links on a front end like this.
RF.

One really loathes the idea of stripping it all down to the frame again, but we have to remember sometimes what a great character-builder such expensive perseverance can be. If perimeter adjustments cannot solve the issue, consider an external measurement of your frame. It's best done on a large and flat table (mine is 4'x12'x3/8" thick) that is level and rectangular. I use a scribe to scratch some grid lines on 1' centers. Then place the bike on the table centered and secure, on the frame/not the tires, and parallel with the grid lines. Plumbing is next, easily done with steel shims. Then you can use reference points on the frame to check alignment. Using a couple of framing squares and a tape measure does the rest. ... Think of the plumb center plane of the frame and wheels being in one plane. Then your slippers should be equi-distant from that center plane (symmetrical), forks also centered as the slippers. From there, your axles should be level throughout their sprung travel.
Take a long look at the centering of the rear wheel (that was my problem with Chief) and the slipper assembly. .. that is, if the front fork assembly has been corrected. Don't be surprised to find things "out-of-whack", and don't be surprised to find out how easily they can be corrected without hurting the paint.
planes, parallel lines, symmetry. ... hope you don't have to take off any more than the wheels to find out, as that's work enough when the sun's shining.

[stevekleincustom]

Steve Klein Update to All - What we found.

Thank you to all who read this thread and offered advice, knowledge and things to check. In all fairness to all I need to reply and let everyone know what I (we) have found.

Frame is straight.
Sprocket and chain alignment is dead on.
Front end is true.
Rims are fine.
Head bearings and races are new and in proper adjustment.
Handlebar top triple tree is level and tight on the upper forks.

What we found
The leaf spring leading links that attach to the rockers are 1/4 inch different length. I switched them to opposite sides and the bike trued up very well. Somewhere in the 40's lifespan it got a new link on one side or the other that was not exactly matched. An easy fix none-the-less with a rod(s) replacement in the near future.

Bike runs down the road very well with the front handlebars about 1 - 2 degrees off exact center. Not too bad for short rides around the area. Will correct soon.

Red Fred attended our AMCA Texas Hill Country National Road Run in Kerrville Tx last week and rode the 440. Since I am less knowledgable on Indians it is always good to have other AMCA members to assist and offer experience and advice. Another reason we all belong to the AMCA.

Thank you to each of you for your time and knowledge. I am a smarter Indian Four owner now and also have met some new Four Buddies.

[partshunt]

Fork Angle:-

Does anyone have the fork angle for the early fours?, 1929-30 etc? Mine seems to handle fine but it might be helpfull to check if one knew what was correct in degrees. . Thanks...Joe