equipment groups

[bmh]

I 've read the judges handbook and I think I already Know the answer to this question, but I would rather be absolutly sure now, rather than disassemble and refinish parts later. I find the Utilty group for my year to be too plain, yet I think the sport group is a little too glitzy.If I were buying this bike brand new in the year it was made , I would've ordered a utility with some options from the sport group. According to all souces I can find I could've done that. Now the question....... If I restore the bike to these specifications would it affect the score compared to staying totaly with one group or the other ?
Thanks, Brian

[exeric]

Brian, I'll bet you're referring to 1951 Harley's. It's my opinion that if the parts are of the correct year and finish then you're okay. It's my belief that most H-Ds have been bought off the showroom floor and not ordered from the factory. The dealer used the order blanks and bought "option groups" from the factory based on what he knew about his customers and what he knew he could sell. Once the dealer had a fish on the line he could start encouraging the customer to buy saddle bags, a buddy seat, and chrome, chrome, chrome. It's no different today. From the dealer's point of view, it would be difficult to sell a base model because they were so plain, or a heavily optioned model becuase it would be expensive and not to everyone's taste. Models in the middle are what they ordered.

I understand your concerns because I feel exactly the same way. I plan to mix it up a bit on my '51 because there are some features I like and some that go over the top.

I have a friend in Orlando that has a 1944 Knucklehead that was bought from Puckett's H-D in Orlando. My friend is the second owner and got it a number of years ago. The story is, the original owner was a mailman with a rural delivery route. He qualified as someone entitled to purchase a new vehicle and ordered his Harley from the factory, through Puckett Motors. When it arrived he was shocked to see a plain, no frills motorcycle. He told Louis Puckett that he hated it, didn't want it, and wanted his money back. To make his customer happy, Louis produced a pre-war chrome package (at additional cost) and that clinched the deal. Now I believe this story but if I was judging this bike I would have to deduct points for incorrect finish because H-D didn't offer chrome option groups for '44 FL's, and my friend has no documentation to support his story. I'm sorry for going on and on but I was in a typing mood and I wanted to work this '44 FL story in.

[bmh]

Yes I am in the year of 51. I am thinking of doing something along the lines of what a messenger service type of bike would have looked like. Like a bank or messenger service may have used. I'm thinking something nicer than a utilty or police bike but not as fancey or expensive as a solo sport. Basically a base bike with rubber mount bars, polished front end,chrome exhaust covers & a basic black luggage rack. All other parts would be of the correct type and finish for the base model .So how would this be veiwed by the judges? Would deductions be made for all the parts that were lacking to make it a solo sport? I have not yet found an authentic photo to base this on, but I'm relativley sure that machines like this were still being sold at this time for these type of uses. Although I do admit this would be about the end of these machines as their jobs were quickly being taken by autos.
Brian

[servicardenise]

I think that if you had a package that was more glitzy, you would want to be consistent with the package. If you only have part of the items glitzy and others that are not, then it would not be something that you would buy from the dealer. I think the idea being what did the dealers offer to the consumer when they purchased the bike. If you are going with a package, try to correctly reproduce what was available. When you mix it up you may have deductions. Denise

[Erdos]

I have never heard the subject of packages come up in judging. If the finishes are correct for the year I think you will be fine. I have a winners circle 1947wl that is basically the utility model with crash guards, deluxe solo saddle, foot peddels. I didn't like the special solo chrome headlight or fender tips. Not once in the many times that I have had it judged or with any of the bikes I have judged has the issue of the equipment groups come up. Do it like you want. I you loose points in judging you can always change it later.

[exeric]

Brian, your concept of the '51 you would like to build is very similar to what I have been thinking of for my '51. I have given some thought to doing the very basic "utility" model but aside from police use, I don't think H-D sold many utility models to the general public, it's just too plain. I have talked to a lot of older riders who bought new bikes after the war and they all wanted as much chrome as they could get. I have never liked an over accessorized or over chromed motorcycle so I would never do a bike like that, but conversly, I don't think a minimalist motorcycle like the utility model is representative of what people were riding in 1951.

I have been trying to decide on what I would like chromed and what should default to the black (cheap) painted part. I like the black Guide tail light, black safety bars, and am wondering about Black painted wheels. What are your thoughts Brian.

[bmh]

While I agree that , as today, most bikes were sold off the floor and not ordrerd. since mine is an EL I wonder how many El 's were sold that way ? not many were sold at all that year and I'd bet the majority of those went to police use. So who was the customer? Seems to me that if you had pockets of cash for chrome and fringes you most likely had the extra $15 for an FL . Just as today, bigger gotta be better.
I knew an old guy years back who bought a new EL in 48 or 50 and he said that was the best running machine he ever owned, always lamented it was the one he should've kept.that is most likely what stuck somewhere in the back of my head and inspired this project. I know he was just a poor farm boy back than
and didn't have a lot of money. he also said the El's were better for gettin around on the country roads than their bigger sisters. Unfortunatly he's not around any more so I will have to do without all the help he would've given. In the end I guess I'll just put her together to be the motorcycle someone like Jay would've bought, simply cause that will make me happiest. I do want to see the project do well as far as being judged, thats why I was curious about how the judges veiw things.
Thanks all, Brian


P.S. if anyone has a photo from the early 50's showing a plain jane in use on the street I would love to have a copy. Thanks again

[exeric]

I have "Enthusiast", and "Motorcyclist" magazines from 1951 which for some stupid reason I have not been looking at. I'll dig through those this weekend and see what turns up.

Your friend was right about 61's. I had a '37 and '41 EL and I have to say that as an all around motorcycle they are probably superior to the 74. I was always impressed by the extra "quickness" they seemed to have and yet could do anything a 74 could do. Like anything a person loves, we probably imbue the objects of our affection with attributes they didn't really have. Also, time has a way of healing the pain which I remember those bikes dishing out in copious amounts. But I sure wish I had them today.

[servicardenise]

I think that I should clarify what I meant by packages, you would get the chrome dash with other chrome items. If you have the dash black, then that tail light would be black. I think you call that utility and sport. I just remember that the chrome went with chrome and the black went with black. I am not sure what you want to stick with but I don't think that it was mixed up. I am not the utmost authority and may be wrong but I might be right. Sometimes this can be learned best by judging and listening to people who know.
I know that it has been discussed during judging. Walt Curro, Bruce Linsday or Dan Henke are the Harley guys, maybe contact them. Denise

[bmh]

Thanks. I plan to go to Jefferson in oct. and get as good a look as I can at the judging process, and ask a few questions too. This is one aspect of old bikes I never paid much attention too, other than what the score card said needed changed.
Also would either of you know someone who has expertise in the correct finsh on hardware. I seem to have found some discrepencies between the parts book and factory photos, and would like someone who knows these things to help me sort it out.
Brian

[VPH-D]

I would think that dealers would order more chromed-up models simply because there was more profit margin in them. The guy I worked for never ordered any stripped models [FLHS] for this reason, and because we feared not being able to sell them.

BTW, my 51 is coming apart this winter for stock paint, black rims, safety guards, and painted dash. I'm liking the austere look!
VPH-D

[Glenn]

to packeage or not to package

I went to the harley traveling museum and looked at the 50 pan on display and compared to the one I just bought and it looks almost the same. I wonder once the harley in 2008 open the museum for the 2008 celebration if that would help everyone. I did take a lot of pictures of the left side of the 50 if anyone needs them

glenn

[bmh]

Would definetly be interested in some photos. seems like a few people think as I do on the matter of what looks pleasing . It brings me to question though , are we to preserve history or prserve our version of it? I suppose this question has plauged many through time who have endeavored to catolog and preserve artifacts. OK enough philosiphy.
Brian

[servicardenise]

Brian,
Dan Henke, Bruce Linsday, and Walt Curro are the Harley people. From my experience while judging with them, you could order a paint available prior to the year of the bike. I think that the war years weren't that way but if you are doing a 1951 it should be any color that was a Harley color prior to and including 1951.
Denise

[servicardenise]

OOOPS,
I thought you asked about paint. Sorry, I think the Niccad was used and that's short for nickle cadmium like for the screws and bolts. I believe the exhaust clamps were parkerized. I think the battery wing nuts were niccad also. A phone call to those people I mentioned would help you greatly. If you do call them let me know what they said. I haven't gotten to judge in a few years. Wauseon was always the meet to judge for me and now I am not able to because I oversee things.
Denise